KCI Combo Graveyard and Resolution question?
Asked by belugawhaleonthefloor 5 years ago
So I’m a bit new to the whole KCI combo thing but it looks pretty fun, I just have one question of how the basic Pyrite Spellbomb Combo works. So let’s say I have a Krark-Clan Ironworks, a Scrap Trawler, a Pyrite Spellbomb, a Myr Retriever, and a Mox Opal all on the battlefield. I’m under the impression that I can declare that I’m activating Spellbombs first ability, and then tap Mox for red, then sac Mox, Trawler, and Myr to KCI as a mana ability. Now do all 4 cards enter the graveyard at the same time? Does the Spellbomb enter after? Do the Myr and Trawler triggers go on the stack after Spellbomb is put in the graveyard, allowing me to get the Spellbomb back with the Myr’s trigger from Trawler?
This might just be the standard KCI combo and I just don’t realize it, but from my understanding, I’m able to essentially sac all 4 artifacts (Bomb, Myr, Trawler, Mox), and and bring back all of them and have 6 mana to play them all and go infinite with Spellbomb. Is all of this correct? And please answer when each thing goes on the stack.
One place where it would matter what order the cards enter the graveyard is that if you're sacrificing Scrap Trawler to KCI, then the Trawler isn't on the battlefield anymore to see you sac the Spellbomb when you pay for its cost, which means you're missing one Trawler trigger.
November 4, 2018 12:56 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
See, a place that it matters. A rather important one too since either Trawler won't be in the yard to be targeted by the Retriever trigger or you won't have a trigger to bring opal back.
November 4, 2018 1:10 a.m.
belugawhaleonthefloor says... #4
But Pyrite Spellbomb being sacrificed is also part of the cost, which means it will trigger Scrap Trawler to get back Mox Opal? Or no? Because it seems like both of you are saying different things. Am I able to do the combo stated in the question yes or no?
November 4, 2018 10:44 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
My first comment was wrong. You are not able to do this combo the way you described with just the linked pieces because if you sacrifice Scrap Trawler when you are able to activate mana abilities before costs are paid, Pyrite Spellbomb will not trigger it since it isn't on the battlefield when the spellbomb is sacrificed when costs are paid. If you don't sacrifice Scrap Trawler before you sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb there will be no time that you can sacrifice it before triggers go on the stack and it will not be in the graveyard to be targeted by Myr Retriever.
I am trying to figure a loop that would work with just these cards, but have not yet. I will post later if I get one figured out.
November 4, 2018 4:27 p.m.
In the process of casting a spell or activating an ability, mana abilities (like KCI) are activated before costs are actually paid. In order to have everything in the graveyard at the time all the Trawler and Retriever triggers would go on the stack, things must be sacked to KCI when mana abilities can be activated during the process of activating Spellbomb's ability.
This means you have to sacrifice things to KCI before you actually sacrifice the Spellbomb. If you sacrifice Trawler to KCI, then it's no longer on the battlefield to see you actually sacrifice Spellbomb, and you miss that trigger.
This is why most iterations of the KCI combo I can find online don't use Pyrite Spellbomb, but rather an artifact like Chromatic Sphere that will also produce mana, because instead of sacrificing Scrap Trawler, they sacrifice Krark-Clan Ironworks to itself during the activation of mana abilities (and that must be done after all the other sacrifices to KCI are done, or KCI isn't there anymore for you to sac other things to it). This of course makes the total mana required to recast your artifacts 7, not 6.
So the process would look like this:
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State that you're activating Pyrite Spellbomb or, in the example I found, Chromatic Sphere. Put the ability on the stack.
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Choose targets as necessary (specifically for the Spellbomb).
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Game checks that the ability can be legally activated.
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The ability's controller determines the total cost of the ability (in the case of Spellbomb, and sacrificing it if you want the damage, and sacrificing it if you want the card draw).
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Since the activation includes mana, this is when you activate mana abilities to pay for it. There's no rule against gaining more mana than you need, as long as you have the sources for it. So this is where you tap Mox Opal, then sacrifice it, Myr Retriever, and either Scrap Trawler or KCI to KCI's ability to produce mana, giving you a current total of 7 mana. Trawler and Retriever will trigger at this point (three for Trawler, one for Retriever), but their abilities won't actually go on the stack until a player would receive priority again. All the named artifacts are in the graveyard at this point, though, in the order in which you sacrificed them, which is why Trawler/KCI must be sacrificed last.
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Now you pay the cost for Spellbomb's ability. This is the point at which it is sacrificed. If you sacrificed Scrap Trawler for mana, it's not on the battlefield anymore to "see" the Spellbomb be sacrificed, so you won't get that fourth Trawler trigger.
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Now that the ability is properly activated and paid for, priority is passed, so all those triggers will go on the stack and their targets will be chosen. This is why they had to be triggered at that specific point; at any other time, they would go on the stack before all the targets you want to hit are in the graveyard, so your return sequencing wouldn't work. You've got four artifacts, but the Trawler triggers are restricted to "lesser converted mana cost," so the trigger from sacrificing Mox Opal doesn't count because it can't get anything back. If you sacrificed KCI instead of Trawler, you'll have a fourth Trawler trigger, so you would use the three usable Trawler triggers to get back Retriever, Spellbomb, and Mox, and the Retriever trigger to get back KCI. If you Sacrificed Trawler instead, you only have two usable Trawler triggers, so something's stuck in the graveyard.
So obviously you'd want to sacrifice KCI instead of Trawler. The problem here is that you produce a total of 7 mana, one of which you spend to pay Spellbomb's cost. That leaves you with 6 mana to pay the following costs once everything's in your hand: 4 for KCI, 2 for Retriever, and 1 for Spellbomb. You're missing a mana. This is why people usually use Chromatic Sphere instead, because it produces a mana as well as card draw.
I'm not entirely sure if there's a different doable combo using Spellbomb instead, but it doesn't slot neatly into the KCI combo outlined above.
Gidgetimer says... #1
When the cost of a spell or ability requires a mana payment you have a chance to activate mana abilities during the process and there is no limit on how many, so you are able to activate Opal for mana and also sacrifice all three of the other cards to KCI.
Technically and very pedantically each of the cards enter the graveyard one at a time, since you have to activate KCI's ability three individual times. I can't think of an instance this could matter off hand, but I'm sure I could find a way to make it matter. The only one that really matters is that you have to activate all of the mana abilities before paying costs, so Pyrite Spellbomb will be the top card of your graveyard after activating its ability and all of the mana abilities.
No player receives priority during the activation of abilities, and triggers don't go on the stack until a player would receive priority. So all of the cards sacrificed during the activation will be in the graveyard, and be valid targets when the triggers go on the stack. The last thing that happens when activating an ability is that it goes on the stack. This means the Pyrite Spellbomb activation will go on the stack and then right before a player would receive priority all of the triggers will go on the stack in APNAP order and if a player controls multiple triggers they get to decide what order to put them on the stack.
November 4, 2018 12:11 a.m.