New hubs to be added
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 12, 2020, 12:28 a.m. by legendofa
Hi all, I'm one of the people who adds hubs, I'm back from an unexpectedly long break, and I'm working on adding some new stuff. Suggestions I'm looking at are Uro, Mutate, Miracles, Doomsday, Adventures, Devoted Druid, and Blink. Please let me know of any other suggestions, or discussions on the ones I listed, and I'll get to work.
Also, what did I miss with the DragonShield superhero stuff?
Casebier That would be a very broad category, and I suspect it wouldn't be especially well defined.
I'm not rejecting your thoughts; it's clear you'd like to make this work. I just don't think this one is ready for a unique hub. I'm willing to be convinced, though. What would you propose, specifically, for a hub that would include The Celestial Toymaker?
January 7, 2024 12:24 a.m.
What about the no limited copies hub for decks like Rat Colony and co.
January 14, 2024 3:38 p.m.
Felipix The problem with "unlimited copies" is that there's no real mechanical similarities between the cards that have that ability. A Rat Colony deck is different from a Shadowborn Apostle deck is different from a Dragon's Approach deck, aside from one deckbuilding rule change.
I'm not trying to shut down your ideas, I promise. And I might just add a separate hub for each of those cards anyway; I'll add them to the short list for review. I'm just wary of setting too strong of a precedent.
January 14, 2024 3:47 p.m.
Rat Colony vs. Relentless Rats. Should they be one combined hub or two separate hubs? Or something else?
January 16, 2024 5:02 p.m.
Is it that people are looking for cards that are limitless? That could be solved by an ability search feature
January 16, 2024 6:18 p.m.
How about an FNM hub? While it isn't a deck type it seems like a lot of people want to find things to present or at least to see what is happening at FNM lately.
January 24, 2024 9:29 p.m.
Made_Compleat says... #11
I know this is something of an open question, but which hub should a Slime Against Humanity deck go into? I know there's a Dragon's Approach hub, just wondering if there should be one for Slime Against Humanity.
February 26, 2024 3:27 p.m.
Made_Compleat That's kind of an open question (which I need to follow up on). I'm trying to find the best way to set up hubs for "any number of cards named" cards, and right now I'm leaning toward giving all of their own cards a separate hub. It's a very recent question that's only going to become more relevant.
February 26, 2024 3:35 p.m.
It seems maybe redundant to make a hub of a certain card vs just searching for decks that contain that card without
February 26, 2024 9:47 p.m.
Made_Compleat says... #15
The thing is, it's harder to compare decks without hubs. Dragon's Approach, Shadowborn Apostle, Slime Against Humanity etc. are all themes on EDHREC, which encourages me to think that they should have their own hubs.
February 27, 2024 9:45 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #16
Hopefully someone is still following this... I have a suggestion for hubs.
"Historic Matters" - I know legendary matters is already a thing but there are a lot of commanders and cards that care about historic spells specifically and they're all pretty build-around. Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Peri Brown, and a bunch of other stuff out of Dr. Who.
March 11, 2024 3:45 a.m.
Last Laugh Historic's not already a hub?
Looks like it's not. I think that should go in as a mechanics checkbox, but if it doesn't get added soon, remind me and I'll add it to the drop down list.
March 11, 2024 12:07 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #19
legendofa You aren't the first person to link the card when responding to me lol. Kinda my fault for blacking out the underscore to hide it though.
March 11, 2024 4:14 p.m.
Last_Laugh I just need to be more careful in my proofreading.
March 11, 2024 4:40 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #21
legendofa I have a few more suggestions for hubs. They're all pretty self explanatory but I included a few examples that'd use them.
Attack Triggers: With more things like Isshin, Caesar, Kaalia, etc. it's time.
Damage Triggers: Mainly just for Felix Five Boots because there really aren't ANY hubs besides aggro for him. I'm guessing there's a few others that'd use this hub though.
Death Triggers: Marchesa the Black Rose, Teysa Karlov, and other death decks that aren't Aristocrats but still care about stuff dying.
Double Triggers: This one is pretty broad but again, there's no hub to describe this deck focus and there's a LOT of Commanders that double various triggers now.
April 12, 2024 1:07 a.m.
Last_Laugh Initial thoughts, and I'll dig into these more when I have time (very busy through the weekend):
Attack triggers are worth looking into, but they're not a snap add yet. Possible, needs review.
Damage triggers might be too narrow, or too broad. Maybe too many cards have "whenever CARDNAME deals combat damage" triggers? Unlikely at this point, but I'll check it out.
Death triggers would have a lot of overlap with Aristocrats. Maybe Aristocrats is a subset of this, but I'm trying to cut down on hubs that entirely included other hubs, and this feels like one of those.
Double triggers is a maybe, to be reviewed. Just doubling triggers isn't much of a theme in itself. What does Bristly Bill, Spine Sower have in common with Solphim, Mayhem Dominus besides the word "double"? All the Legendaries that double something either double counters, which is a hub; damage, which usually falls under burn or something similar; or power and/or toughness.
Not rejecting any of these off hand, but I want to get a feel for how they would make the most sense before making them.
April 12, 2024 4:34 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #23
legendofa re: double triggers. None of what you listed is a trigger. I'm talking Isshin, Two Heavens as One, Teysa Karlov, Felix Five-Boots, Yarok, the Desecrated, Gandalf the White, Drivnod, Carnage Dominus, Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines, etc.
I guess to me a hub describes a decks main focuses and when I'm unable to describe my deck this way then the available hubs might be getting too narrow.
Anyways, cheers and sorry for the bad timing... it didn't even click I tossed this at ya on a prerelease weekend.
April 12, 2024 9:47 a.m.
Last_Laugh I wish it was prerelease scheduling. Life outside of M:tG is stepping up. Nothing bad, nothing I can't handle, just deadlines and a need to focus.
April 12, 2024 6:59 p.m.
SolePilgrim says... #25
There doesn't seem to be a hub for anything like joke decks.
I suppose casual is good enough, but I'd feel bad for people to try some of my own "casual" decks and performing even worse than they expected.
Would a joke category be something worth adding?
April 14, 2024 12:52 p.m.
SolePilgrim Would Theme/Gimmick work? Can you please give some more details?
April 15, 2024 8:05 p.m.
SolePilgrim says... #27
legendofa I was unaware of that theme! Fits quite well for what I was looking for, thank you.
I built a deck that's Ship tribal with an Islandhome subtheme. Since I was trying to include as many cards depicting ships into it, the deck is absolutely not meant to be strong and is lacking in no-brainer stuff like removal and counterspells. Fleet to the West, for those curious.
April 17, 2024 11:23 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #28
legendofa Well I hope you met your deadlines and got things taken care of. I just wanted to inquire if you've had a chance to contemplate the hubs I suggested?
April 19, 2024 1:11 p.m.
000CBomb000 says... #29
Hi legendofa I'm interested in 93/94 Old School and don't see many hubs for common deck architypes for that format. Would you consider adding some? The most common are: Robots, Lion Dib, The Deck, Deadguy Ale, UWX Skies, Disco Troll, Counter Burn, Erhnamgeddon, White Weenie, Zoo, URX Atog. These architypes win OS tournaments frequently. Less common are: Reanimator, Parfait, Sligh, Tax Edge, Twiddle Vault. Would you consider adding some of these as new hubs?
May 4, 2024 4:22 a.m.
Last_Laugh Huge apologies, I've done a couple of surface level dives on double triggers, and thinking about adding it to see how it gets used, but I haven't had time for a deep dive. On my list for next week. It feels a little EDH-centric, which I'm trying to cut down on, but it's definitely a growing area.
000CBomb000 White Weenie, Zoo, and Reanimator should all be hubs already. I have pretty much no experience with 93/94 Old School. How much variation is there between Erhnamgeddon decks, or between Disco Troll decks, or whatever? If an archetype is a consistent tournament winner, that usually suggests it's a tight decklist and doesn't see much variation. I'm trying to cut down on format-specific hubs in general, but if there's enough range, variety, and recognizability, I'll consider it more deeply.
May 4, 2024 8:26 p.m.
000CBomb000 says... #31
legendofa great, thanks for that, so we're only concerned with the rest that don't currently have hubs.
There is a surprising amount of variability in these old archetypes. Searching here on TappedOut for OS decks with Sedge Troll + Nevinyrral's Disk (the core combo in Disco Troll) turns up about 35 diff decklists with RB, RBU, RG, 4c, and land destruction variants. Not all will be competitive, but even at the competitive level there are RB and RBU variants.
Erhnamgeddon is the same, about 35 decklists just on this site. GW, GWU, 4c and 5c. There is a sub-variant that replace Armageddon with Ice Storm for targeted land destruction, called Erhnam on Ice, which also has mono G, GW, GU, and GR variants.
It is Old School, so the cardpool is pretty narrow (>1000 with FEM) and there are a lot of auto-includes (e.g. Ancestral, Time Walk, etc.), but there is still a decent amount of variability within each archetype.
May 4, 2024 9:31 p.m.
Last_Laugh Double Trigger has been added. I'm going to review it for usage consistency once it's been up for a while, to make sure it's being applied correctly.
000CBomb000 I should be able to look into the 93/94 decks later this week. The last four weeks have been insane for me, but once I get everything in my life finished and locked in, I should have plenty of time.
May 14, 2024 2:13 a.m.
000CBomb000 Could you please help with a couple of these? I can't find any specific definition of Lion Dib, and my best interpretation is that it's straightforward Jeskai aggro/zoo. What makes Lion Dib distinct?
I know that historically, Sligh is the predecessor to Red Deck Wins, but may I suggest that Oldschool 93/94 + Red Deck Wins = Sligh? Or is there some defining feature of Sligh beyond the format restriction?
Similarly, Oldschool 93/94 + Artifacts = Robots? I see the influence of Su-Chi, Triskelion, and Mishra's Workshop, but I feel like there's some core interaction or combo I'm missing.
I'm usually pretty hesitant about adding format-specific hubs, but a lot of these look like they have range outside of Oldschool 93/94. Most of them can be added or shortlisted.
May 19, 2024 9:16 p.m.
000CBomb000 says... #34
Hi legendofa, sure let me see if I can help.
Lion Dib =========================
The core of Lion Dib is always the creatures Savannah Lions and Serendib Efreets. It is always at least UW. Because of that it almost always has Counterspell, Disenchant, and Swords to Plowshares. So the core of it is always fast creatures with control/denial spells, possibly you could call it midrange?
Sometimes players splash B for Demonic Tutor and Mind Twist (black OS staples). See example here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/old-school-9394-lion-dib/
Sometimes players splash red to add burn, called Lion Dib Bolt, see example: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/liondibbolt-1/
Players can also add more creatures via Serra Angel. This variant is called Triple S: https://mtgdecks.net/Old-school/triple-s-decklist-by-gwen-de-schamphelaere-1800147
Players can also add even more creatures via Su-Chi and drop the Counterspells, going more aggro. Example: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uwb-aggro-control-3/
But regardless of the variant, the core is always Savannah Lion + Serendib Efreet and often contains Counterspell, Disenchant, and Swords to Plowshares, a mid-range combo I think. Lion Dib variants are always at the top of recent OS tournaments.
Sligh ====================
I think I agree with you that Sligh is the predecessor to Red Deck Wins, but I'm not familiar enough with the newer deck archetype. Sligh is almost always mono red aggro with lots of creatures and burn. It almost always contains goblins. Here are a couple references, you can check them and decide for yourself if you think Sligh is distinct enough for its own hub: https://www.wak-wak.se/9394decks/sligh
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/famous-red-decks-magic-history-2004-07-22-0
Here are some example decks: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/old-school-sligh-3/ https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/old-school-9394-red-budget/
RG variants start to bleed into Zoo, I think. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-04-24-rg-sligh/?cat=type&sort=name&cb=1712892416
Honestly, Sligh is not very popular at the OS tournaments, so I leave it to you to decide if it should have its own hub.
Robots ============================
Robots is like Lion Dib in that it has a consistent core: Su-Chi, Triskelion and Copy Artifact. The star is Triskelion, which is both a creature and a bolt in one. The goal is generally to get as many Triskelions on the board as possible via casting them, copying them, or reanimating them. Kill opponent with combat damage and direct damage from the Trikes. Triskelion is arguably the strongest creature in Old School.
The simplest variants are mono-U. But there are also UR (add burn), UB (add reanimation), URB and UWB (add denial via disenchant/swords) variants. Examples: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ubr-robots-winner-uthden-troll-cup-v-2023/
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/skynet-winner-of-danish-old-school-dos-2022/
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/old-school-9394-monoblue-robots/
Robots is a consistent deck archetype at the highest level of OS competition.
Hope those descriptions are helpful. Let me know any other questions. Cheers.
May 20, 2024 2:04 a.m.
000CBomb000 This is great, thanks.
Tournament results aren't one of the major criteria that I use for hubs, and quite a few of the existing hubs don't see much use outside of casual play. Generally, I like suggestions that are
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unique. They shouldn't overlap too much with other hubs, or they need a specific defining feature that makes them a recognizable subset.
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varied. If an archetype shows up in different formats, colors, or other variations while still remaining identifiable, it's probably hubworthy. (When I started doing this, there were a few hubs where all the decklists were identical except for maybe one or two cards, and a few others that only showed up for one Standard season and got one deck every few years after that. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum now.)
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understandable. If it takes more than a couple of short sentences to describe how a strategy works, it probably won't make a good hub. If it's broader than the aggro-combo-control group, it's too vague to be a hub.
So Lion Dib looks pretty good, but it's not a slam dunk if it only shows up in one format. Sligh, I'm leaning toward it being basically proto-RDW and not unique enough to be its own thing, but I'm willing to be convinced to make it a hub. The biggest distinction there is the ratio of land destruction to pure burn, and even that seems pretty flexible. Robots is in the same boat as Lion Dib. I'll do more research on those.
Others you mentioned, like Deadguy Ale, Disco Troll, and Counterburn, are at the top of the short list. They'll get added soon, along with a couple of other recent requests. I actually thought Counterburn was a hub, but it's not on the list.
May 20, 2024 4:04 a.m.
000CBomb000 says... #36
legendofa great, glad to be of help. I can't really comment if these archetypes exist outside OS since OS is all I'm interested in. There could possibly be some overlap with Vintage, but then the available cardpool just explodes compared to OS.
As for tournaments, I only mention those because I happen to be interested in them and have recently been documenting tournament-winning decks to help me focus my investments in OS, which are very expensive as you can imagine.
Outside of tournaments, the bulk of casual play allows a lot of brewing fun, one-off decks. There are many formats that branch off from OS that encourage deck diversity, especially X-points (where specific, powerful cards are assigned a point value and the whole deck cannot exceed a certain total), Singleton (where only a single copy of each card is allowed) and Four Horseman (a variant of OS that only allows the 4 original expansions, but not the base set ABU). These certainly produce diversity. But I'm not familiar enough with them to know if some of the archetypes I've proposed to you also show up there.
Here are some references to these OS format variants if you are interested. They generally have some deck pictures on each site:
https://xpointoldschool.com/
https://www.fourhorsemenmagic.com/
https://7pts-singleton.com/
https://www.mtgoldframe.com/93-94-old-school-scryings/
Let me know if I can provide any more info. Cheers.
Casebier says... #1
If Toymaker has a unique hub, maybe there should be a hub for Unique Mechanics or something like that?
January 7, 2024 12:17 a.m.