Zameck Guildmage and counter doublers
Asked by UltimateRoxas40 1 month ago
Since its first ability can be activated multiple times, are they considered separate events or cumulative?
For example, if I activate the "enters with an additional +1/+1 counter" ability twice, would that be the same as "the creature enters with two +1/+1 counters", or "the creature gets a counter, then gets another counter"? With counter doublers or boosters like Harden Skin or Kami of Whispered Hopes, that could change the number of counters we get.
Test scenario. Zameck's ability is activated twice, and another creature ETBs. It's either:
- The creature enters with two +1/+1 counters, Harden Skin sees "one or more counters", and adds an additional counter, resulting in 3 counters
or
- The creature enters with a +1/+1 counter from Zameck's first activation, HS sees "one or more counters" and adds an additional counter, then the +1/+1 from Zameck's second activation is added, HS sees "one or more counters" and adds an additional counter, resulting in 4 counters total.
I've done a search here and on Reddit, MTG assist, etc, and didn't find a satisfying answer haha, so I thought I'd check here. Any input is much appreciated!
UltimateRoxas40 says... #2
Ahh, I didn't know about the 'with' being part of the Replacement effect situation. I primarily associate 'instead' or 'as' when considering replacement effects, but not 'with', which led to my confusion. I now have to go down the rabbit hole of rulings with replacement effects haha.
Always glad to learn something new. Thanks for the explanation Rhadamanthus!
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
You can use double square brackets around a card's name to create a reference link: Zameck Guildmage, Hardened Scales, Kami of Whispered Hopes. It's the best way to help make sure everyone understands what's going on in the question.
Hardened Scales will just add one more +1/+1 counter in your specific question. The effects from Zameck Guildmage will cause the creature to enter with two additional +1/+1 counters and Hardened Scales will see a creature about to enter the battlefield with one or more counters, so will add another one.
All of the effects here are replacement effects (you can usually tell by the use of one or more of the words "as", "with" or "instead"). Replacement effects replace the usual results of an event with a modified event. If multiple replacement effects could modify how an event affects a player or object, then the affected player or controller of the affected object chooses which one to apply first. The modified event might then become eligible for other replacement effects and/or no longer eligible for others. You keep going until there are no more unused replacement effects that can be applied and then the event happens.
In your example this means at first only the replacement effects created by Zameck Guildmage could apply to the creature entering the battlefield. After you apply one of them, now the other Guildmage effect and the Hardened Scales effect could apply to the modified event. Whichever one of those you apply first, the other can still be applied to the further modified event. After you apply that one there's nothing left to deal with and the creature ends up entering the battlefield with 3 +1/+1 counters. If there were a doubling effect involved here like Doubling Season then the order in which you apply the effects would matter and you'd get the most counters by applying the doubling effect last.
April 9, 2024 11:04 a.m.