What happens if I trigger the ability granted by Tyvar the Bellicose with V.A.T.S. on the stack?
Asked by BarfQuackers 3 months ago
Tyvar the Bellicose and V.A.T.S.
First of all, I'm assuming I can activate stuff like Fyndhorn Elves because split second doesn't stop mana abilities or triggered abilities.
Say I have Tyvar the Bellicose, Llanowar Elves, and Elvish Mystic on the battlefield. In response to V.A.T.S. targeting both mana dorks, I tap one of them to become a 2/2 thanks to Tyvar, what happens? Does the spell Fizzle? Does only the the 1/1 die? Can they choose between either one? What happens if they cast V.A.T.S. targeting both as 1/1s and in response I tap them and they both become 2/2s?
I tried looking this up online the only answers I could find were "doesn't matter because you can't do anything in response to split second" and "idk".
BarfQuackers says... #2
wallisface Thank you, just to clear it up for me, the card does say "choose any number of target creatures" because it starts with chooses but still has target, it happens on resolution instead of cast like other spells that start with target?
February 7, 2024 3:29 p.m.
wallisface says... #3
BarfQuackers deepest apologies, I skimmed the card and missed the word “target”. So my initial assessment was off.
The targets will be chosen upfront as the spell is cast. The text “destroy the chosen creatures” doesn’t re-check whether the creatures still have the same toughness on resolution, only that they were chosen/targeted, so it would appear that they get destroyed regardless of whether Tyvar intervenes.
I suspect split-second was only stapled to this card to avoid the unintuitiveness of its interaction when toughnesses do change (and likely to prevent the card being too wordy).
February 7, 2024 3:37 p.m.
wallisface says... #4
It’s prolly worth waiting for a second response just in case my assessment is off there.
I’ve trued finding the card in gatherer to check any rulings there, but the card doesn’t appear to exist there yet.
February 7, 2024 3:44 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
As of right now, this is the only card that uses the "equal toughness" language. Because this set hasn't been officially released, we don't yet have official rulings notes for how V.A.T.S. interacts with other effects and certain rules of the game.
THE FOLLOWING ANSWER IS SPECULATION. If I still remember this question topic by the time we get official rulings notes for the card, I will come back here and post again to either confirm or correct.
The set of legal targets for V.A.T.S. is "any number of creatures with equal toughness". In the example where the creatures end as 1/1 and 2/2, neither will get destroyed. Neither of the creatures has equal toughness to the other creature being targeted, so neither is a legal target and they can't be acted on. In the example where both creatures end as 2/2, both will get destroyed. They each have equal toughness to the other creature being targeted so they are still legal targets for the spell.
If the above is the correct interpretation, V.A.T.S was probably given split second so it could actually work sometimes instead of forever getting fizzled by responses that change a single creature's P/T.
February 7, 2024 5:08 p.m.
BarfQuackers says... #6
Rhadamanthus fair enough, this is the first spoiler I've ever really paid attention to, I didn't realize they spoiled cards without sharing the ruling for them. Thank you for your speculative answer it seems the most correct.
So, if there were 3 1/1s and one was changed to a 2/2 the two 1/1s would die because they are still legal targets? Better yet 4 creatures, two are increased to 2/2s and two are left as 1/1s would you be able to choose which two die? Or do all four die because each pair has equal toughness?
I know we can't know for sure as of right now, but I'm curious as to what you think.
February 7, 2024 6:03 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
My interpretation is that nothing would get destroyed in those examples because no creature has a toughness equal to all the other creatures being targeted.
February 8, 2024 8:47 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #8
I just remembered to check for the Release Notes. They came out last week: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/magic-the-gathering-fallout-release-notes
The last note given for V.A.T.S. confirms my initial thoughts:
- In the rare case where the legal targets no longer all have equal toughness (probably because of a triggered ability or special action) when V.A.T.S. tries to resolve, it won't resolve. None of the chosen creatures will be destroyed.
March 7, 2024 9:31 a.m.
BarfQuackers says... #9
Rhadamanthus Haha, thank you! I was going to tag you tomorrow to ask.
wallisface says... #1
While V.A.T.S. is on the stack you can indeed change your creatures toughness with Tyvar the Bellicoses ability.
However, do note that V.A.T.S. doesn’t “target”, it chooses a number of creatures during its resolution - and when this is happening there will be no chance to respond to this (as the spell is resolving).
So, in response to someone casting V.A.T.S. you could use Tyvar to try and give as many of your creatures different toughnesses as possible. But, then V.A.T.S. will resolve and whoever cast it will be able to destroy the creatures with the same toughness of their choosing
February 7, 2024 2:52 p.m.