Toralf & damage trough -1/-1 counters
Asked by Coward_Token 3 years ago
Alice has a Toralf, God of Fury Flip and a Soul-Scar Mage. She Shocks a 1/1 controlled by an opponent. Will Toralf trigger?
To add some assurance, the above answer is completely correct, Soul-Scar Mage replaces the damage with -1/-1 counters, so no damage is dealt. It's worth mentioning that noncombat damage with wither or infect (such as withering bolt) can still deal excess damage and trigger Toralf, God of Fury Flip.
January 26, 2021 3:31 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #3
I think the mix up the OP has is because infect and wither have similar results as the replacement effect of Soul-Scar Mage.
Infect:
- 702.89c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with infect isn’t marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that source’s controller to put that many -1/-1 counters on that creature.
Wither:
- 702.79a Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn’t marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that source’s controller to put that many -1/-1 counters on that creature.
The defining difference is that infect and wither are static abilities that modify the game rules so that damage dealt is in the form of -1/-1 counters, and Soul-Scar Mage's ability is a replacement effect that changes damage into -1/-1 counters. The reminder text for both infect and wither also state that the damage to creatures is in the form of -1/-1 counters (meaning the -1/-1 counters for both infect and wither count as damage).
To further expand on Neotrup's comment:
Technically, if you had a Scourge Servant fight a 1/1 saproling token with Blood Feud with Toralf, God of Fury Flip on the field, Toralf, God of Fury Flip would still deal 2 damage to any target. As a side note though, the damage that Toralf, God of Fury Flip deals would not be infect damage as he is the source of the damage for his trigger.
January 26, 2021 4:29 p.m. Edited.
Coward_Token says... #4
Thanks to all three of you. I figured this out for myself at some point before, but then I forgot ._.
dragonstryke58 says... Accepted answer #1
Unfortunately, I think Toralf, God of Fury Flip won't trigger.
Soul-Scar Mage converts the damage to -1/-1 counters, so unfortunately unlike infect (which is damage in the form of -1/-1 counters and poison counters), the effect is not damage. When looking into the Gatherer ruling for Soul-Scar Mage, the fourth entry states that you could convert the damage into -1/-1 counters before Insult / Injury can multiply the damage to not have Insult have any effect. That shows that once the damage is converted to -1/-1 counters, it's no longer damage and just an effect putting that many counters instead (as opposed to an infect-like effect).
From Gatherer:
4/18/2017: If multiple prevention and/or replacement effects are trying to apply to the same damage, the controller of the creature that would be dealt damage chooses the order in which to apply them. As examples, an opponent could choose to apply the effect of Djeru’s Resolve and prevent the damage rather than put -1/-1 counters on it; or an opponent could choose to convert the damage to -1/-1 counters before Insult could double it, and then Insult’s effect won’t apply anymore.
January 26, 2021 1:03 p.m.