Increasing Vengeance Getting Copied
Asked by IceFloe_7 2 years ago
This seems a bit silly, because it feels like it has a correct answer, but the more and more I think about it the more confused I get.
I play Kalamax, the Stormsire. With it, I have learned that when you cast a modal card such as Pyroblast it keeps the option chosen option. However, if I play an Increasing Vengeance and it is copied, does that copy retain tjhe fact it was cast from a graveyard?
I do understand that copies are not cast, which would lead me to think no. However it just confuses me with the modal part.
The oracle text now reads "this spell" instead of "increasing vengeance" on the line "if this spell was cast from a graveyard".
Lastly, I do understand that it getting copied can make Kalamax infinitly big, just if it double copies the origional the other can hit like a Grapeshot infinitly.
you answered your own question "I do understand that copies are not cast" / "if this spell was cast from a graveyard".
also Fritzn is correct "something else to keep in mind is Increasing Vengeance cannot copy itself." the portion that says "you may chose new targets for the copies" can be confusing but to make more sense of it divide the card up by each sentence
Copy target instant or sorcery spell you control.
at this stage you have declared your target and a copy is placed on the stack
If Increasing Vengeance was cast from a graveyard, copy that spell twice instead.
if requirements are met a second copy of "that spell" is placed on the stack
You may choose new targets for the copies.
if you keep in mind the first two sentences have already resolved the target spell to be copied has already been copied and on the stack so you can only choose legal targets of that spell
i hope that helps
p.s. to make Kalamax, the Stormsire infinitely huge simply cast Twincast, Fork, Reiterate, or Reverberate in response to anything one of your opponents cast and as long as kalamax is tapped you can use his copy to loop. but keep in mind none of the combos listed this far will net +1 copy and since copying does not count as casting it does not up storm counts so none of the suggestions on this thread will help your Grapeshot
April 8, 2022 6:26 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #3
The best thing to remember is: Copied spells arent cast. They retain all modes chosen of the spell they're copying (as they are for the original on the stack), they remember if any additional costs were paid to cast the original, but they aren't cast themselves. Not from a graveyard, not from hand, so anything that triggers, or gets additional effects from being cast, will not be copied, because the copy isn't cast.
April 8, 2022 6:31 p.m.
bushido_man96 says... #4
Just to clarify, Increasing Vengeance is not a modal spell. Flashback does not make it modal; it just allows you to cast it from your graveyard.
April 8, 2022 7:46 p.m.
I'm a bit confused on your question here. Are you casting Pyroblast or just Increasing Vengeance? If the former is just an example of a modal spell, then what bushido_man96 said is highly relevant because increasing vengeance isn't a modal spell, rather it has an alternate casting cost. As others have said, the copies won't be from the graveyard.
If you are copying Pyroblast, then what Fritzn said is relevant because Kalamx will copy Pyroblast and we will need something else to copy Increasing Vengeance, since both copies will just copy Pyroblast.
If instead we are casting Cultivate and then Increasing Vengeance is the first instant or sorcery we cast, then those copies will hit Cultivate, but Kalamax will copy Increasing Vengeance. Since we can pick new targets for the copy then we can have it self-target and do the infinite counter thing. However, as Kalamax's copy isn't from the graveyard we aren't doubling it- the only doubled spell will be the original one where both targets will hit Cultivate (since it specifies "that spell" and we aren't allowed to select new targets for the copy).
April 9, 2022 7:26 a.m.
FTR they erratad all cards that refer to themselves as spells on the stack to say "this spell" rather than "[cardname]", presumably to help avoid a little bit of confusion for spells that become permanents. There was no change in functionality though.
April 10, 2022 1:15 p.m.
To sum up:
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Copies of Increasing Vengeance will make one copy of the spell they target, even if the original was cast from the graveyard.
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Kalamax, the Stormsire only copies the first instant you cast each turn, so to copy it with Kalamax you need to have cast a sorcery to target with Increasing Vengeance, not an instant.
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Making a copy of a copy spell can start a loop, but you don't gain extra spells from it since you only make enough copies to continue the loop. You need another piece to close out the game—you could get Kalamax arbitrarily large if you can get in with an attack, get an arbitrary amount of Treasures from Storm-Kiln Artist, or kill everyone with Ral, Storm Conduit, but without something like that your copy loop won't do anything.
April 10, 2022 1:21 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #8
Well the actual question was:
"If I cast Increasing Vengeance from the graveyard and it gets copied with Kalamax, the Stormsire, does the copy make 2 copies just like the original? Because when you copy a modal spell like Pyroblast it will copy the chosen modes."
And the answer is:
"No, the Kalamax copy will copy target spell just once, because the copy of Vengeance wasn't cast from a graveyard, it was copied from the stack. Being cast from a graveyard is not a 'mode' of a spell that you choose when you put it on the stack, it's an inherent effect that's in the wording of the spell that checks upon resolving if its conditions are met."
April 10, 2022 7:49 p.m.
The easiest way to kill the table with Kalamax once you have infinite counters is good old Chandra's Ignition. It takes care of them good.
April 10, 2022 7:57 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
IceFloe_7: Answers to your question have been up for a while. Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups or corrections to be made, I marked one of them as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. In the future you can take care of this yourself using the "Mark as Answer" button on the response that you feel best answers your question.
Fritzn says... Accepted answer #1
how it was cast is not a copiable value, so no, a copy would not create 2 copies.
something else to keep in mind is Increasing Vengeance cannot copy itself. you need something else to create a copy of it: have Thousand-Year Storm on the field, cast Shock, hold priority, cast Increasing Vengeance targeting Shock, Storm will create a copy of Vengeance and since it specifies you can choose new targets, you create a copy of it that targets the original increasing vengeance, and from there I believe you can go infinite, if your opponent doesn't stop you some way.
April 8, 2022 4:03 p.m.