How to resolve Shahrazad in EDH/Commander?
Asked by nobu_the_bard 9 years ago
So yes I know Shahrazad is banned in all formats, but I know at least one player in our playgroup somehow is being allowed to run it in a deck. His definition of a fun deck is different than mine, it seems.
I've never been in a position where I might have to know how Shahrazad actually resolves properly in Commander, but given the complex interactions we often run into, and now someone is using it, I probably need to learn.
The Oracle text just says "Players play a MAGIC subgame, using their libraries as their decks. Each player who doesn't win the subgame loses half his or her life, rounded up." and clarifies a few details of carrying out the subgame in the rulings. A few things I'm not clear on:
- Does the Magic subgame always use the first game's starting life totals? It seems like it does.
- Are the cards in the "frame game" (to borrow a term from literature) in a non-game zone during the subgame? Rather than being exiled, I mean; so they're not valid targets for say Riftsweeper .*Are poison counters, emblems, etc from the frame game tracked separately from the subgame?
- When the subgame concludes, does the game state simply revert to where it was when Shahrazad resolved? I mean, do we have to actually play out ETB type effects and such from things coming back onto the board?
I'd appreciate anything you think of to say to these questions or any other complexities you might think of.
Bonus question: Is it possible to dissuade someone from making a play through stares or pure intent alone? Maybe someone knows Jace's cell number?
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #2
- Yes. You start another game of the same format of whatever you were already playing, so you use the same starting life totals.
- The cards in the main game are outside of the subame. They are still technically in a game, but can only be interacted with by means of the Wishes and Ring of Ma'ruf . If you do, it's possible you may create a zone-change trigger in the main game.
- Yes, it's a completely different game.
- You just pick up where you left off, unless you did something as mentioned above to create a zone-change trigger in the main game. The main game got temporarily paused while everyone wandered off because for some reason you allowed some idiot to put Shahrazad in his deck.
If I see Shahrazad, I just concede the subgame. That's the easiest and cleanest way to deal with it, in my opinion.
If you want to read all the gory details, see Section 715 of the CR.
July 7, 2014 1:11 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #3
Subgames
715.1. One card (Shahrazad) allows players to play a Magic subgame.
Oh gawd it's an entire chapter all by itself. I didn't think to look. Two dedicated pages of rules, by my count. I don't know how I'm going to convince my group this is a bad idea, particularly with this guy's history, maybe I'll request thoughts in the forum. I like your idea of conceding the subgame but that might be sticky in multiplayer (I anticipate potentially being the only one willing to concede).
Incidentally, when did they stop posting TXTs for the comprehensive rules? I'll have to actually put a PDF viewer on my phone now I guess.
Thanks for your answer!
July 7, 2014 1:32 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
That's an interesting question about the alternate formats. I think I remember seeing .txt, .rtf, and .doc formats in the last year or so, but I might be thinking about Rules Update Bulletins and Set FAQs. It may actually have been several years since the last time the CR was put up in non-pdf formats.
July 7, 2014 1:40 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #5
Actually Rhadamanthus I'm pretty sure, if you dug back into Q&A a bit, I've linked directly to the rules TXTs inside of the last year. I'm going to guess they stopped posting them around the time they redesigned their website a couple months back?
July 7, 2014 1:59 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Well, reading your comment made me remember they archived everything before the redesign as-is ("as-was"?), so we can check on that question directly. That page only seems to show a .docx and a .pdf option, which is what the new page also gives.
July 7, 2014 2:15 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
You just need to convince your how horrible an idea it is to let someone play Shahrazad especially since Fork , Wild Ricochet etc. are cards.
July 7, 2014 2:48 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #8
I'm assuming the Commander would go into the sub-game, even though not specifically dealt with in the rules?
July 7, 2014 8:54 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
The rules for subgames do address that.
715.2c As a subgame of a Commander game starts, each player moves his or her commander from the main-game command zone (if it's there) to the subgame command zone.
715.5c At the end of a subgame of a Commander game, each player moves his or her commander from the subgame command zone (if it's there) to the main-game command zone.
So a commander card will only move from the main game to the subgame if it's in the main game's command zone or library, and if it's in any zone other than command when the subgame ends it'll get shuffled into the main game's library.
July 7, 2014 9:16 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #10
Wow, I confess it was a bit tl;dr for me there. Thanks for the synopsis!
That's huge though - waiting until your opponent has his commander in play before casting Shahrazad. neat.
nobu_the_bard says... #1
Formatting goof-up, I hope this is easier to read:
July 7, 2014 12:30 p.m.