Exactly how do I permanently exile with Sundial of the Infinite?
Asked by CoryDean 6 years ago
I play a flicker deck, and I know that temporary exile can become permanent exile, but I can't seem to find a truly precise explanation as to how. It sounds like it all comes down to timing. I also don't know if it can be done with all of the cards below, or only some:
I feel like it doesn't work with effects like Deadeye Navigator or Ghostly Flicker.
How do I make it work with Flickerwisp, Mistmeadow Witch, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Otherworldly Journey, and Conjurer's Closet?
(I also just happened across the possibility of permanent exile of commanders, which is exciting.)
Gidgetimer is correct, though there are two points of clarification I want to make:
It is important to wait until the delayed trigger is on the stack. If you activate Sundial of the Infinite, the delayed trigger will not have activated, and thus will not be removed. It will thus activate at the beginning of the next upkeep--your opponent's.
Any time a commander changes zones, your opponent has the opportunity to return them to the Command zone. This includes flicker effects. As such, your opponent can merely return their commander to the command zone and cast it again. (If you are looking for semi-permanent commander renewal, Darksteel Mutation, Song of the Dryads, and Imprisoned in the Moon are your friends, as they provide removal, without a zone change.)
May 10, 2018 2:05 a.m. Edited.
FancyTuesday says... #3
And when Gidgetimer says end the turn they mean with an ability like that of Sundial of the Infinite.
I suspect you may be chasing after a popular method to permanently exile targets with Torment-era cards like Faceless Butcher. This effect was born of an older syntax that used two separate triggered abilities that you could interrupt, putting the "Return" effect on the stack on top of the "Exile" effect. That wording is no longer used in modern renditions of the effect that use the wording "While [this card] is in play exile target X."
Also, you cannot permanently exile Commanders unless your opponent allows you to do so by deliberately opting to send their Commander to the exile zone rather than the command zone. Any time a Commander moves to the exile, graveyard, hand, or library the player has the option of returning it to the command zone.
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owners hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event.
May 10, 2018 2:08 a.m. Edited.
FancyTuesday says... #4
Sorry, massive brain fart and missed the reference to Sundial in the question itself. Read "Flicker" "timing" and "permanent" exile and went way off the map. Ignore all of the above except the commander rule. Also, the wording I was thinking of for modern temporary exile effects is "exile target until [this card] leaves play."
May 10, 2018 2:17 a.m. Edited.
An important point that hasn't exactly been touched on. If you exile an opponent's commander with something like Roon of the Hidden Realm and they choose to put it in the command zone, the ability will still trigger at the beginning of the next end step, and will still return the commander as long as it hasn't moved from the command zone. You will still need to activate the Sundial of the Infinite to keep it in the command zone.
May 10, 2018 2:50 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
A point of clarification in defense of OP. This is used as a form of permanent commander removal in some cases. Many people don't realize the point Neotrup made about the delayed trigger returning a commander even if it is sent to the command zone and will let their commander go to exile since it is only until end of turn.
I have seen it done before when no one in the group was aware that it would return if sent to the command zone. This is why I didn't point out that you can replace any zone change to exile with going to the command zone, as long as the zone change to exile is allowed to happen you can strand a commander there. (Well that and even though I know the interaction stated by Neotrup I don't have to deal with these shenanigans often enough that I remember how to get around them. I was just confirming it would work if the exile were allowed to happen.)
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
You are correct that you cannot permanently exile from effects that exile and return as a single action.
To permanently exile with cards that return at the beginning of the next endstep, you wait until the delayed trigger is on the stack and end the turn. This removed the return ability from the stack so that it has no effect. Since the delayed trigger to return already went off it ceases to exist and there is no way to return the creature shirt of pulling it from exile like you could with any other exiled card.
May 10, 2018 1:55 a.m.