Does Pitiless Plunderer and March of the Machines work the way I think it does? - Question at the very end, involving infinite mana
Asked by TypicalTimmy 1 year ago
Pitiless Plunderer has this strange thing where he doesn't care if the creature dying is a token. Normally cards will specify "nontoken creature", in order to try and prevent infinite loops. He, oddly enough, does not.
So if you have March of the Machines out, and a creature you control were to die, you'd create a Treasure token, which is now a 0/0 artifact creature.
Now, I do know that state based actions will check and it'll be sent to the graveyard due to having 0 toughness. According to the official terminology of the game, whenever a permanent is moved from the battlefield (specifically) to the graveyard (specifically) it does in fact "die". So yes, it is accurate to say that the token creature dies to state based actions.
When this token dies, Pitiless Plunderer is going to see this, make a Treasure token, which is created as a 0/0 artifact creature thanks to March of the Machines. When priority is changed and state based actions are checked, it too dies and the cycle continues.
So, this seemingly is a 2-card infinite death-loop, which cards such as Falkenrath Noble will care about. Similarly, if we slide into Grixis, Purphoros, God of the Forge will care when the new Treasure artifact creature ETB.
Long winded wall of text aside, here's my REAL question:
Suppose we are, in fact, in Grixis and I have something such as Fervor in play, such that I am now able to use activated abilities the turn the creature enters the battlefield.
- My 0/0 Treasure artifact creature is created
- The game is on pause, waiting for priority to switch to my opponent(s)
- When this occurs, state based actions are going to see my 0/0 and attempt to move it to the graveyard
So, question:
Can I, at any point in this process, tap and sacrifice it for the mana, since it has haste thanks to Fervor? Because it'll still die (moving from the battlefield to the graveyard), so I'll still continue the loop. But since activating a mana ability does not use the stack, and the permanent in question is sacrificed as part of the cost (and therefore can not be responded to), I should be able to theoretically produce infinite mana of any combination of colors in this way, correct?
- And be aware, you (or an opponent) must have a means to break this loop. If all you have is Pitiless Plunderer and March of the Machines with no means to end the loop (Removal of Pitiless Plunderer, an enchantment to make the Treasure artifact creature at least a 0/1 so it survives state based actions, etc) you will cause the game to formulate a draw and nobody wins or loses the game, it'll simply end and cease to be.
I think that all permanents do technically die, which was specified because of Myrkul, Lord of Bones, but WoTC only shortcuts this for creatures/planeswalkers.
You will not be able to tap it for mana before it dies. The game will not give any players priority before the token dies.
Rule 605.3a: "A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability."
Rule 117.5: "Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities”). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so."
So say a creature dies. Pitiless Plunderer creates a token (That will be a 0/0 because of March). Rule 117.5 will occur, checking all state-based actions. As part of this, your 0/0 token will die. Then when it checks triggered abilities, the die trigger will go onto the stack. Then players receive priority. According to Rule 605.3a, a player (you) will not receive priority to activate the Treasure's ability before it dies.
November 19, 2022 10:53 p.m.
After some digging I found the rules thread that covers permanents dying.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/docan-enchantments-die-yavimaya-elder-and-myrkul-lord-of-bones/
TypicalTimmy says... #1
Correction: Whenever a CREATURE or PLANESWALKER is moved from the battlefield to the graveyard, it does in fact "die". An Evolving Wilds, under normal circumstances, does not "die", as an example.
November 19, 2022 8:30 p.m.