Creature damage checked before player damage?
Asked by jstucky95 9 years ago
So, I attack my friend with a Chief of the Edge and a Flamerush Rider, putting a copy of Chief of the Edge onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. He blocks one of the chiefs, assigning lethal damage, and lets the Rider and the other Chief swing through.
His claim is that by the time that player damage is checked, the extra chief is gone and the other two warriors don't get the +1 power buff. He says that creature damage is checked before player damage. I cannot find anything in the rules to support his claim. Concerning combat damage and when exactly it is dealt, all I found was this:
510.2. Second, all combat damage that's been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt. This is a change from previous rules.\
If all damage is dealt simultaneously, then my two warriors would still get the +1 buff. I don't know where he's getting the creature vs. player damage argument from, but some clarification would be wonderful.
Thanks in advance!
He's wrong... All damage (provided no first or double strike) is dealt at the SAME TIME...
February 23, 2015 10:23 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3
The rule you quoted is the right one to go to. It explains that all damage is dealt simultaneously; there's no check for creatures and then for players. Damage is dealt, then state-based actions are performed and any creatures that have been dealt lethal damage are destroyed.
February 23, 2015 10:32 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #4
This is where I would usually quote rule 510.2 but it looks like you already went to the trouble of finding it yourself. The key to this interaction is that creatures that are assigned lethal damage don't immediately die. Rather, they die when the game has time to do what judges call "check state-based actions" - which basically means, the rules look at the game state and try to figure out if they need to fix anything. The point is that this doesn't happen in "real time", so to speak - rather, the game just periodically checks - and it checks often, but not constantly.
Here is what happens since the beginning of the Combat step. I am going to assume the blocker of the opponent was a Wetland Sambar just to have a card to reference.
- At the beginning of the combat step, creatures assign combat damage. This all happens simultaneously. At this point, the p/t of your creatures is: Chief of the Edge 4/2; Flamerush Rider 5/3. The blocked Chief of the Edge deals 4 damage to Wetland Sambar; your other two creatures deal 5 and 4 damage to your opponent respectively; Wetland Sambar deals 2 damage to Chief of the Edge. We are still in the damage event.
- As a result of the damage that has been dealt: the first Chief of the Scale is now a 4/2 creature with 2 damage marked on it; Wetland Sambar is now a 2/1 creature with 4 damage marked on it; your opponent loses 9 life. The damage event ends.
- We are now in the combat damage step; at this point, the active player (in this scenario, you), receives priority - which means, you have a chance to cast (instant-speed) spells or abilities. Whenever any player is about to receive priority, though, the game checks state-based actions. In this case, the rules of the game go "Hm. It appears there are two creatures on the battlefield that have a toughness less or equal than the amount of damage marked on them. Welp, better fix that!" and Wetland Sambar and Chief of the Edge are destroyed and put into your respective graveyards. Your remaining creatures are now a 3/2 Chief of the Edge and a 4/3 Flamerush Rider
- Because the rules of the game had to do something (destroy Wetland Sambar and Chief of the Edge) they do another check if the game state looks fine now. Now everything looks fine, so you finally get priority.
- Provided you don't do anything, your opponent now gets a chance to do stuff. Before that happens, the rules perform another check.-If neither of you does anything, the game progresses to the next step and the turn proceeds as normal.
February 23, 2015 10:34 p.m.
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TheRedMage says... #1
He is just wrong. All damage is dealt at the same time, so both copies of Chief of the Edge and the Flamerush Rider each assign 5 damage, regardless of whether the recipient of that damage is a creature or a player.
February 23, 2015 10:04 p.m.