Combat Sequencing
Asked by Valmek 9 years ago
So I was at FNM yesterday and played against someone for 1st place finish and on one of our games something happened I didn't think was right but didn't question it. I had a Festering Newt and I don't remember his card but it was a 2/2 so let's say Oreskos Sun Guide . I attacked with my Newt and he blocked with his Oreskos and then I said okay since my Newt is dead I'm going to target your Oreskos and give it -1/-1 and then he said in response I'll use Boros Charm and make it indestructible and I told him the -1/-1 would still kill it but he said the damage from them fighting and it dying was still on the stack so the Charm worked and blocked the first damage but the -1/-1 made it a 1/1 not a 1/0 like it should of been killing it. I wasn't too sure of it but he is the 'pro' one of the bunch in our store but I'd like to hear from you guys.
On a side note I don't know if it's doing it for you guys or not but I can't type on Tappedout and see what I type without highlighting the text to see it so I'm doing this on Notepad. =/
119.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.12, "Regenerate") and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2). #
Say again?
June 21, 2014 8:59 p.m.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible cant be destroyed. Such permanents arent destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Say again?
June 21, 2014 9:23 p.m.
Also, for the record, damage doesn't reduce toughness. A 2/2 that got -1/-1 and was dealt 1 damage is a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it, not a 1/0. This bit of confusion usually stems from playing Duels of the Planeswalkers (which reduces toughness as a convention to mark damage; this doesn't actually happen).
June 21, 2014 9:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
119.6 is irrelevant here because the creature is indestructible. Damage does not reduce a creature's toughness. Also, damage does not use the stack.
This is what happens. The two creatures deal combat damage to each other. Festering Newt dies because it has lethal damage marked on it, and Oreskos Sun Guide remains a 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it.
You target Oreskos Sun Guide with Festering Newt 's ability. In response, your opponent makes Oreskos Sun Guide indestructible by casting and resolving Boros Charm in its second mode. Oreskos Sun Guide is now an indestructible 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it.
When Festering Newt 's ability resolves, Oreskos Sun Guide will be an indestructible 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it. It won't be destroyed because it's indestructible.
June 21, 2014 9:30 p.m.
Can you guys even read? I'm asking if my opponent was right. The said the damage was on the stack, and the Newt dying so the Boros Charm would go, then Newt die making the Sun Guide -1/-1 then no damage because it's indestructible, that's what my opponent is saying but clearly you guys can't say whether this is right or wrong just telling me what indestructibility is and I clearly know the mechanic of it. What i need to know is if what he said is right. After the combat isn't that over with, I thought he should of used it when they were fighting for it to live but I would like answers not nonsense you guys are giving me I clearly am not asking for. Thank you for whoever actually helps me.
June 21, 2014 9:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Don't be a smartass. Every answer given to you was correct.
First, damage does not use the stack. It hasn't for a long time.
From Boza's post:
the opponent is correct - the sun guide will exist as 1/1 creature with 1 damage marked on it and it will be indestructible
June 21, 2014 9:34 p.m.
Okay. You want the yes or no? Your opponent was right.
I think we just all figured you'd get more out of this if we explained why he was right and you weren't, so you don't have to ask this again.
June 21, 2014 9:34 p.m.
Please tell me how rule 119.6 is irrelevant to this for that if the damage doesn't use the stack as I thought and the damage stays why wouldn't it be a 1/0 and die like it should. It took the 1 damage before it was given indestructibility and it's a given that if something is given -X/-X and its toughness goes to 0 or below it dies regardless to its toughness so please do tell me in detail so I can understand because I so must be stupid and everyone in the store I play at since this has been happening since I started playing last year of August, I only truly wanted to know if he played the Boros Charm right because that's what he said now please, enlighten me.
June 21, 2014 9:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
Because damage does not reduce toughness. This was covered in posts 4 and 5.
When a creature is dealt damage, the damage is marked on that creature until the end of the turn. The creature still has the same P/T. The only forms of damage that reduce toughness are wither and infect damage, which are dealt to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters.
June 21, 2014 9:48 p.m.
So you're saying Electrickery wouldn't kill it, it'd just give it a marked damage even though it should be dead when I used it on the Sun Guide, just to clarify what you are actually saying.
June 21, 2014 9:55 p.m.
Any time state based actions are checked, if a creature has an amount of damage marked on it which equals or exceeds its toughness, that creature has lethal damage and is destroyed.
Creatures which are indestructible do not get destroyed by 'destroy' effects or lethal damage.
So if a 1/1 is indestructible and is dealt one damage, it is a 1/1 with 1 damage marked, that will not be destroyed when state-based actions are checked, because it is indestructible. This would be true if it had 10 or 100 or 10,000,000 damage marked on it, because that's the effect of "indestructible"
June 21, 2014 9:57 p.m.
A 1/1 which is dealt 10 damage is a 1/1 with 10 damage marked on it.
A 1/1 which has 10 -1/-1 counters put on it is a -9/-9.
A 1/1 which is dealt 10 damage does NOT become a 1/-9
June 21, 2014 9:58 p.m.
My bad what I meant to say let's say it didn't have indestructibility would it die then so I understand your guy's ways. Sorry I forgot to mention that.
June 21, 2014 9:59 p.m.
When the spell resolved, a 1/1 which had been dealt 1 damage would be a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it. Then, the next time state-based actions were checked, it would see that the amount of damage marked on the creature was equal to its toughness, and it would die.
June 21, 2014 10 p.m.
I guess after almost playing a year of Magic I still don't understand then and should quit and get a better life for myself because this doesn't make sense.
June 21, 2014 10:06 p.m.
You almost certainly understand -what- is happening, just not precisely when. The interactions of state-based effects, and the stack, and layering are all very deep and confusing. Why do you think judges have to go through a whole formal testing procedure, and the comprehensive rules are like several hundred pages long?
June 21, 2014 10:09 p.m.
So are you saying when the 1 marked damage is put on the Sun Guide is there, then it gets indestructibility later then get's a -1/-1 state-based actions does check to see that there's enough 'damage' so to speak for it to die? 1 + 1 = 2 Which is its toughness, and indestructibility only lets it survives lethal damage not reducing its toughness.
June 21, 2014 10:15 p.m.
A 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it, that becomes indestructible, and then after gets -1/-1 is a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it which is indestructible.
Next time state-based actions are checked, the game goes "Oh, a 1/1 with 1 damage on it, better destroy that" and then the indestructibility says "Nope, not gonna happen" so it doesn't die.
June 21, 2014 10:17 p.m.
A 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it that gets indestructible, and then -1/-1 and then ANOTHER -1/-1 will die because it's a 0/0 with indestructible, but having negative toughness is neither lethal damage nor a destroy effect.
Since damage does not reduce toughness, even a 2/2 with 50 damage marked, that gets -1/-1 still won't die if it is indestructible.
June 21, 2014 10:18 p.m.
That just doesn't make sense, the 1 marked and -1/-1 should make it die. I posted on your wall in response to you if you're still offering.
June 21, 2014 10:31 p.m.
here is what happens:
your newt deals 1 damage to the 2/2
the newt dies from damage
the newt's ability goes on the stack
in response your opponent makes the 2/2 that has 1 damaged marked on it indestructible.
the newt's ability resolves making his 2/2 a 1/1 indestructible with 1 damage on it
his 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it does not die when state based actions are checked because it is indestructible (can't die due to damage).
it does not matter if the damage was dealt before or after the creature became indestructible, it can not cause the creature to be killed. The only way to get rid of an indestructible creature is exiling it , sacing it, or reducing it's toughness to less than 1. And damage does not normally reduce toughness.
June 21, 2014 11:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
The only part you still don't understand is that damage does not reduce toughness. That's it. You grasp everything else.
Stop thinking of it in terms of numbers. Although 1+1=2, you're trying to count apples by summing apples and oranges. Old expression, sure, but accurate nonetheless.
119.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.
119.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.11, "Regenerate") and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible cant be destroyed. Such permanents arent destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Nowhere in the rules for damage does it ever say that damage reduces toughness - because it doesn't. Damage is marked on a creature, but the creature still has the same P/T. When you deal 1 damage to a 2/2, you get a 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it. You do not get a 1/1 or a 2/1.
At the moment before Festering Newt 's ability resolves, the creature is a 2/2 and has indestructible and 1 damage marked on it. It is not a 2/1, and it is not a 1/1.
At the moment after Festering Newt 's ability resolves, the creature is a 1/1 and has indestructible and 1 damage marked on it.
However, damage does not reduce toughness. the creature is still a 1/1. It is not a 0/0 or a 1/1.
Normally, a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it would be destroyed as a state-based action, but an indestructible creature cannot be destroyed. That's the literal definition of indestructible.
June 21, 2014 11:58 p.m.
We took care of it on Skype, I think he's good with the rules now.
Boza says... #1
In this case, the opponent is correct - the sun guide will exist as 1/1 creature with 1 damage marked on it and it will be indestructible. Damage does not reduce a creature's toughness, so it will not die in this case.
June 21, 2014 8:49 p.m.