Activated Abilities & Trigger abilities ect. resolving once the creature is removed
Asked by keyno 9 years ago
Okay, so at a tournament, an opponent Cast a Herald of Torment on their Agent of the Fates . I put a Hubris on the stack, to send off his Agent.I was imagining that as the Herald never enchanted a creature, it would invalid target, and that as the Agent wasn't around when its effect resolved, the effect would not resolve, but the judge ruled otherwise. I understand now that bestow lets you decide as the effect resolves whether it's a creature or an aura, but why did the Heroc work?If you use Hydra Broodmaster 's effect, and then somebody chains a Doom Blade , will the hydra tokens still spawn?Someone help, as I am begging to question the way I interpret the rules on Activated & Triggered abilities.
in JWiley129's example: Shipbreaker Kraken 's ability would still tap up to 4 target creature's, they would not be under the restriction of not untapping.
July 25, 2014 6:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #3
Simple answer to your first question is that once abilities are on the stack they exist independent of their sources, and as such will still resolve.
For the second question, Hydra Broodmaster has 2 abilities. The first one allows you to pay XXG to put X counters on her and make her monstrous. The second one triggers when she becomes monstrous and uses the same value of X to put X X/X Hydras on the battlefield. If someone casts Doom Blade in response to the first ability she will never become monstrous and the second ability will never trigger.
As a nitpick about what you said about bestow; the player doesn't get to choose. The rules on bestow simply say:
702.102d As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spells controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a
That is the only reason that the spell would enter as a creature. You couldn't choose to have it enter if someone somehow flashed a Pacifism onto the targeted creature.
July 25, 2014 6:58 p.m.
Okay, sorry, but I think I need slight bit more clarification.
So, once an effect has been put on the stack, it resolves regardless of whether the permanent is present, but with monstrous, as there is no creature to become monstrous, the triggered effects do not activate?
And an ability that says something like "G: Target creature get's +3/+3" (to invent an example). I'd pay the Mana cost, then declare the activation. Then if someone Doom blades it, the +3/+3 will still follow through, on whichever target i'd already selected?
Also, thanks for confirming the Bestowed effect for me, I've never been able to find that full rules explanation.
July 25, 2014 7:05 p.m.
Also, (as like a final example) If I tapped a Sigiled Starfish and it was hit with Lightning Bolt or otherwise destroyed, am I right in assuming i'd still scry?
July 25, 2014 7:09 p.m.
some monstrous creatures have a triggered ability that happens when they become monstrous. This triggered ability only happens once the monstrous ability resolves. So if the monstrous creature is removed from the battlefield before the monstrous ability resolves, the triggered ability never happens.
trigger abilities trigger, not activate.
yes, once the activation payment for an activated ability is paid, the ability is independent of the permanent that the ability came from. Destroying a gun will do nothing to the bullet.
the same goes for triggered abilities, once whatever triggers it happens, it exists independent of the permanent that is was triggered from.
July 25, 2014 7:11 p.m.
Brilliant, thanks guys - Me and the other 3/4 guys I play with have been doing this wrong for aaaaaaages xD
July 25, 2014 7:15 p.m.
so for a monstrous creature:
- you pay the activation cost, and the monstrous ability goes on the stack.
- players get a chance to respond.
- the monstrous ability resolves, triggering any when it becomes monstrous abilities which goes on the stack.
- players get a chance to respond.
- the triggered ability resolves.
and if someone was to respond in step 2 and remove the creature from the battlefield, then there would be no triggered ability on the battlefield anymore.
July 25, 2014 7:16 p.m.
Wonderful - Really, we've been playing it with the dreaded Yugioh (ugh) rules, that if the source is no longer present, the effect cannot resolve. I'll be sure to pass this all on, along with an explanation of why the Monstrous still doesn't Work =)
This has been bothering me since the Journey into Nyx pre-release xD
July 25, 2014 7:33 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #11
Yes to both of your asked questions. Both of those abilities would still resolve.
To clarify Monstrosity just a little bit more:
The Monstrosity ability puts counters on the permanent it is on and gives it the trait of "monstrous". The permanent is not monstrous until the ability resolves.
Creatures that have Monstrosity come in one of three styles. The first type are Vanilla Monsters. These are the ones who have no abilities beyond getting big. Tjhese are along the lines of Fleetfeather Cockatrice and Gluttonous Cyclops They are a pain, but usually end up over costed for a creature of their size because you got the option to pay it in 2 installments.
The second are Continual Monsters. These are the guys that have additional effects after they become monstrous. These are along the line of Fleecemane Lion and Polis Crusher . They are normally perfectly playable without Monstrosity and have nice effects when they are monstrous but cause little confusion because adding abilities is pretty simple.
The last is Explosive Monsters. These are along the line of Hydra Broodmaster , Hythonia the Cruel , and Polukranos, World Eater . These have big flashy abilities that monitor for the creature to gain the trait "monstrous". They are usually big enough abilities that they can swing games. These cause confusion because of the trigger looking for the trait given when the first ability resolves. If one of these Monsters is removed before their Monstrosity ability resolves they never became monstrous and the second ability never triggered.
(BTW I fully expect someone to come in here and be pedantic about "triggered abilities don't activate" so I will say it here to hopefully keep them from saying it, even though it matters little since you obviously understand that a trigger has to be met and you can't just "Activate" it.)
July 25, 2014 7:35 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Sorry I type super slow because I have a tendency to over explain stuff so that the person asking the question understands "why" instead of just "what"
July 25, 2014 7:37 p.m.
No, it's good. I was asking for precisely "why", with just a little "what" mixed in for context. That really changes the game for us, we've been holding back kill's & bounces as a form of "negate" for abilities, but we're gonna need to seriously re-think our game!
July 25, 2014 8:01 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Yeah I saw a bit where you were talking about YGO. There is 1 card I know of that counters abilities (Stifle ) but in Magic abilities exist independent of their source and as such as soon as you know you want to use targeted removal on an object is 99% of the time the best time to use it. There are exceptions but those are gameplay decisions.
July 25, 2014 8:55 p.m.
Yeah, that and Voidslime . Okay, I feel a lot more confident with that now, i'm glad i've finally had that cleared up for me - kind of feels like a fog has lifted =)
July 26, 2014 6:27 a.m.
Ok since were on the subject of spells chains what if an opponent taps spore frog and in response to the tap i murder it will spore frog ability still go threw even though it didn't sacrifice?
April 28, 2015 11:39 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
Spore Frog has no tap abilities. If you mean they tap to attack with him and then you Murder they can respond with activating his ability if they want to. If you mean they announce the ability and you try to murder before they sacrifice him, you can't do that. When you activate an ability or cast a spell there is a process that is followed before anyone receives priority. The second to last part of the process is to pay all costs. The cost of Spore Frog's ability is to sacrifice him and he is sacrificed before anyone can do anything about it.
April 28, 2015 12:10 p.m.
Sorry bad question i ment like Orcish Settlers if i tap it and pay the mana and someone uses Murder will the orcish settlers still do its effect enven tough is been poped?
April 28, 2015 12:15 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #20
Yes, in Magic abilities exist independent of their sources. With Orcish Settlers you would go through the steps of activating the ability and then the ability would be on the stack. At that point your opponent could cast a Murder targeting your settlers. Even if the murder resolves and kills your settlers, the ability from them is on the stack and will still resolve.
JWiley129 says... #1
Heroic is a triggered ability that triggers when the creature becomes the target of a spell. If an opponent casts a Bestow creature, say Herald of Torment , then it becomes an Aura spell which targets a creature. Since your opponent targeted Agent of the Fates the heroic trigger will go on the stack, making you sacrifice a creature. This ability doesn't care that the Agent isn't on the field if it resolves, so it will resolve making you sacrifice a creature.
As for your monstrous question, if you activate the monstrous ability of a creature like Hydra Broodmaster and then kill it with Doom Blade you can get one of two things. 1.) If you responded to the activation the creature will die and its triggered ability won't go on the stack. 2.) If you respond to the triggered ability of the Monstrous creature then the ability will go on the stack. It will do it's best to resolve given last known information. E.g. Hythonia the Cruel 's ability will still destroy all non-gorgons, but Shipbreaker Kraken 's won't do anything.
July 25, 2014 6:48 p.m.