2nd Octopus from Swarm Intelligence?
Asked by MilliNox 6 years ago
Hey there!
I'm rebuilding my EDH U/B Spells Deck at the moment and stumbled over a card interaction. Let's say I have Swarm Intelligence on the field, cast something like Ponder and then Crush of Tentacles for it's Surge cost.
Because of Swarm Intelligence I would get a copy of the wipe and also a 2nd Octopus token, if I'm not misunderstanding the rulings for the card on Gatherer:
"The controller of a copy cant choose to pay any alternative or additional costs for the copy. However, effects based on any alternative or additional costs that were paid for the original spell are copied as though those same costs were paid for the copy."
Is my assumption correct?
Cheers
MilliNox
Swarm Intelligence will copy certain effects, but not text-changing effects. The 'if it's surge cost was paid'-clause, isn't a text-changing ability though, it already exists on the card and upon resolving the spell, it will check what cost was paid, whether you cast the spell for regular cost, or suge cost. According to the rules below, this clause will be copied when copying Crush of Tentacles.
Then it should be noted that you choose which cost you pay before putting the spell on the stack. So in short, if you pay it's surge cost and it goes on the stack, the spell will copy the casted 'surged' spell. If you cast the regular spell, it will copy a regular spell but won't give you the ability to cast it for it's surge cost.
So in short, your assumption is correct.
Please note though, that your spells will not resolve at the same time, so you will bounce everything, create a token. Then resolve the second spell, bounce everything again (which should be just the token most of the time) and then create a second token. Net result leaving you with a single 8/8.
Rules text:"706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied."
October 2, 2017 4:44 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
Yes your assumption is correct. Though the second bounce to resolve is going to return the token created by the first to your hand and then it will cease to exist.
October 2, 2017 4:46 a.m.
How this will resolve is the copy will resolve first, returning all creatures to their owner's hand. Because the copy was not cast, it was not cast for it's surge cost and therefore does not create an octopus. The copy was "surged" so to speak, but that's not what the text asks. Then the original resolves, returning nothing and creating an 8/8 octopus. Also note that Swarm Intelligence is a may ability, so you could simply choose not to copy the spell.
October 2, 2017 11:25 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
One would think that the fact that the surge cost was paid isn't a copiable characteristic, since such things are not copiable for permanents. However spells copy if alternative or additional costs were paid as well as what was used to pay it. This interpretation of 706.10 is backed up by the card rulings on Crush of Tentacles.
706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isnt cast and a copy of an activated ability isnt activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, Casting Spells.) Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
1/22/2016: If an instant or sorcery spell cast for its surge cost is copied, the copy is also considered to have had its surge cost paid.
chosenone124 says... Accepted answer #1
Here's what happens. You have Swarm Intelligence and you Surge Crush of Tentacles
In response to your Surged Crush of Tentacles, Swarm places a copy on the stack. According to the 1/22/2016 ruling, this Crush is also surged.
First copy resolves it bounces all nonland permanents and drops an Octupus. Your boardstate is: One Octopus.
Original resolves, bouncing your Octupus and dropping a new Octopus. Your boardstate is: One Octopus.
October 2, 2017 4:42 a.m.