Thoughts/Opinions on Butcher of the Horde
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 13, 2015, 6:58 p.m. by RoarMaster
Heyo. So I just found out about this card Butcher of the Horde recently. Probably a bit behind the times, I know, but I dont play standard, and unless it makes an immediate splash in Modern or Legacy it can take a while for some cards to make it onto my radar.
Im curious as to what the masses think about this guy. He is chillin at like 50 cents, which is kinda suprizing to me, cause I think he is pretty bomb in the right deck.
Why I think he is good:
1) There is no such thing as a 5/4 flyer without a drawback, other than this guy. Every other big flying beater has some usually significant drawback ability attached that makes them generally too unreliable to be playable. This makes him one(if not THE)of the most efficient evasive beaters around.
2) He is removal proof, or at least resistant. He fears no Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Victim of Night, Smother or Doom Blade. Basically the only things you have to worry about are Path to Exile, Terminate, and Dismember when it comes to played removal in the format.
3) He has (potentially) a huge impact upon hitting play. If you have a couple creatures or tokens to sac, the guy hits the field, swings and gains you 5 life. Assuming they have no flying defence, thats a life spread of 10 points the turn he enters.
4) He plays well with other format staples. He can be run beside Dark Confidant without worry due to the fact he can gain back all the lost life and more with a single swing and He loves the tokens made by Lingering Souls(for the most common example).
Why he is not so great:
1) Weird colors. He is in colors that you dont normally see together, and as of yet are mostly unknown in Modern. Not that they are bad colors, but being 3 colors forces him to be played in Mardu or 4/5c goodstuffs lists only.
2) If you dont have sac fodder, he is kinda vanilla. I mean a better than square girth flyer for 4 aint nothin to fuck wit, but some will probably mention the lack of sac issue.
Anyway, Id like to hear your guys thoughts on him. Obviously Im a fan, how about you?
RoarMaster says... #5
Unlife Derp! You are entirely correct! My bad, for some reason I thought there was a non-demon clause in there. Yes it can be chumped, but not easily since he flys, and you can still race with him if he is getting chumped via his lifelink, so its not that bad when he is.
APPLE01DOJ Erm. Dont really know what to say to that... good luck winning maybe? Lol, in all seriousness though you are required to run cards just to get rid of persecutor, and thats not good. He also cant stabilize, has no immediate impact on the board, and lets your opponent play very fast and loose since they cannot lose. All bad things.
December 13, 2015 7:35 p.m.
He's really good but in colours that no one has made work properly. Though 4 toughness means he's not great on the defensive and because he doesn't have an ETB he is risky against decks running or path or decks that just dont care and swing goblins at you etc.
December 13, 2015 7:38 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #7
ChiefBell Yeah, should you be playing against a deck that runs Path to Exile(25% of modern decks), should they draw the path to exile(one in 15 cards), and should they not use it on turns 1,2, or three to remove your other guys. Then yes, you are entirely correct, he is 'risky' play against PtE, but that is pretty much the only thing he is susceptible to, and pretty much everything dies to PtE anyway. And for that matter, I did mention already that PtE was one of the few removal that was viable against him.
As for people swinging with goblins, well, goblins isnt really even a deck for starters. Second, you can block with him and (insert other dude here), sac the other dude for lifelink, and watch the goblin player cringe as you just went from 5 life to 10. Something RDW and goblins really cannot stand up to, especially with no way of removing Butcher easily in red.
December 13, 2015 7:51 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #8
Always ignore his sac abilities when considering this card. They are only relevant when you are ahead on board and thus become a little win-more. There are corner cases where you can activate lifelink and come back from a loss but that's pretty rare.
So let's look at it.
5/4 for 4. Good value at vanilla already.
It flies. Even better. Doesn't die to anything commonly run in modern except path and dismember. Not bad.
Overall I'd say play it if you want. It doesn't make or break the deck since the deck isn't tier material anyways
December 13, 2015 8:34 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #9
xzzane could have something to say about this. BW tokens splash red for this guy? I realize Purphoros is a thing though...
December 13, 2015 8:39 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #10
u have to run awful cards with percy like Liliana of the Veil...
December 13, 2015 8:41 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #11
APPLE01DOJ I never said you had to run awful cards. But yes, you will need to draw into a removal spell in order for him to be any good. Thus he is a bit of a two card combo that might win you the game in 4 turns, and if you want to go 2 card combo, might as well just run splinter twin and win right away. Persecutor is useless in a vacuum and a bad topdeck as well. Makes it so that your opponent only has to worry about countering/removing your own kill cards, because they can dink around as much as they want as long as they keep your persecutor alive, very much lowering the number of 'threat' cards that they have to deal with. But I shouldnt really have to be pointing out the flaws in persecutor, they should be fairly obvious to all. Dont get me wrong, I really like persecutor, but he is more of a johnny card than a spike.
December 13, 2015 9:01 p.m.
B/W tokens doesn't have a ton to gain from a red splash. Unless you're doing something crazy like that Blood Moon list that popped up in Pittsburgh that is. I have a r/w token list that splashes a single Godless Shrine, and I favor Purphoros, God of the Forge for the 4 drop. It doesn't die to removal, and it can both act as an ETB source of damage and a mini-anthem.
December 13, 2015 9:23 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #13
xzzane basically between you and chiefbell, I get out of it "R/W tokens is viable, B/W tokens is viable, but if you splash a shared color, your deck becomes no good"... I dont see the logic here. You have all the strengths to gain from the third color, and all you lose is a little mana pain, and spectral procession. Unless Spectral is really so bomb ass that you NEED it to make a tokens deck, all you are losing is a little life to land, a 'problem' that has never stopped any other deck like jund for example who has no method of counteracting the lifeloss. So how exactly does a deck go from 'good' to 'fail' just by splashing a friendly color?
This is kinda off topic though, this post was about Butcher of the Horde not Mardu tokens, which is a seperate post made yesterday.
December 13, 2015 10:32 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #14
I ran Abyssal Persecutor in Smallpox for over a year. The card is far better than you give it credit for, and far less restrictive than you think it is.
I'd prefer it to Butcher of the Horde any day, since both need to be built around. 5/4 Flying needs other creatures to use abilities vs 6/6 Flying Trample needs other cards to close game. There is not a lot of fatties in modern but of what there is. Percy can block Tasigur, the Golden Fang Gurmag Angler and Siege Rhino. Butcher of the Horde can't block any of those...
It's a great top deck and cards like Miren, the Moaning Well make it even stronger.
Honestly, most people kill Percy first chance they get. I'm not going to say that I've never lost to not finding an answer to him but it's rare and every deck has it days.
December 13, 2015 10:35 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #15
APPLE01DOJ Id disagree that you have to build around Butcher. He is a 5/4 flyer for 4, as I said, that is, so far in the world of magic cards, the most efficient thing you can get. Even if you never use his abilities, which shouldnt be a problem for that matter, nor need to be built around, since 90% of decks run creatures, he is still the best thing out there at what he does for his cost. He cant endlessly block those examples, you are right, but he does trade with all of them, which is really all a guy can realistically ask for when comparing a card to all of the top drops out there.
December 13, 2015 10:43 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #16
Percy is good. You run removal anyways because you're playing Black (and most likely 
), and he's a 6/6 with flying. For four mana, that's pretty amazing, no matter the outcome. And let's assume that you can't find a kill spell right away. So what? Your opponent is at 0 life, you have a 6/6 beater to block whatever comes at you, I wouldn't call that a bad position by any means.
December 13, 2015 10:44 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
@RoarMaster That's because RW Tokens isn't viable. BW is just barely Tier 2.
Adding red loses Spectral Procession for mediocre cards. You're also taking extra damage when you already have Bitterblossoms and Thoughtseizes and frequently discounted Dismembers.
December 13, 2015 10:45 p.m.
Splashing a third color in tokens is just a bad idea. Spectral Procession is an amazing, amazing card, and not running it hinders a token deck tremendously. The problem with splashing a color is you don't really gain enough to benefit from it. B/W tokens uses the color black primarily for hand disruption. R/W tokens doesn't have room for hand disruption. So the black color splash in r/w tokens is not good (unless small for Lingering Souls, like I do). Do you want me to go more in depth on card choices? I can if you want me to. Just take it from someone that plays the archetype and has built both r/w and b/w token decks. Same deal for b/w tokens. R/W tokens is a blast to play, and can be competitive at the FNM level, but I wouldn't say it's good enough to take to a large event.
December 13, 2015 10:50 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #19
FAMOUSWATERMELON "Lets assume you cant find a kill spell..." You can stop right there, lol, if you cant find a kill spell, it doesnt matter whats going on because you will never win, 6/6 beater/blocker and them at 0 life or not. And I would call a boardstate where it is impossible for you to win to be a 'bad position'.
December 13, 2015 10:51 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #20
No, but my point is that you'll have plenty of time to find a killspell before they can overrun you. What's more, they won't even try to attack you because if you manage to kill your percy while blocking, you win, and if you don't, then you probably kill the attacking creature. It's a situation where both of you are just waiting for either him to kill you in one shot or you to topdeck one of your 10+ killspells while drawing other gas. I think I know who will win that race.
But it's an irrelevant situation. In 98% of cases, you will have a killspell at your disposal. And yes, I know, there is that 2% where you don't. But the benefits outweigh the costs by a lot.
To get back on topic, I think that the only thing that makes Butcher of the Horde more playable than Percy is the lifelink. I mean, I guess that's worth something in certain matchups, but there are better cards than that available. And the three colors really hurt, because as was pointed out, Mardu is weak in Modern.
December 13, 2015 10:59 p.m. Edited.
RoarMaster says... #21
GlistenerAgent I guess you are replacing spectral procession with 'mediocre' cards if you consider lightning bolt, lightning helix, and terminate to be 'mediocre'. Which I personally dont find. But the lack of spectral sucks alright. And you may be taking pain off of bitter, thoughtsieze(run inquisition instead then), and lands, but by adding red you get access to lightning helix which helps counteract that. And you shouldnt need to run dismember if you have access to PtE, Terminate, ect
December 13, 2015 11:03 p.m.
The problem with mardu colored tokens lists are that they try hard to be a grindy, controlling shell, but just can't compete as well as other color combinations such as grixis. Token manabases hurt like hell when they're just two colors; having a third color as a necessary component of the deck turns the deck's manabase into a suicide list, especially if they are intending to play Spectral Procession turn 3. It doesn't really gain anything that helps its bad matchups, and it doesn't really benefit the good ones either.
December 13, 2015 11:08 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
If you're running all of those, you're not really playing tokens anymore
December 13, 2015 11:08 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #24
FAMOUSWATERMELON I wish people would stop using made up %, lol, it helps no one but the person who made up the stat. And it only helps them by making it seem like their point is legitimate(might be, but if it is you shouldnt need to make up stuff to make a point).
But aside from that, yes, all the guy has to do is counterspell your killspell, or swing for lethal at once, or combo out, in order to beat the persecutor player at the stalemate, where the persecutor player only has one way out, resolve a kill spell on his own guy.
December 13, 2015 11:12 p.m.
Also, if you want to ask anyone about mardu lists, Vamp has been tinkering with mardu colors for ages now, so he should know a lot about how the colors interact with one another.
December 13, 2015 11:15 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
Kindly don't be an ass.
A BW Tokens deck shouldn't splash for Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix or Terminate. All of these roles are either unnecessary or already filled by a card in the deck. You are using your tokens as your removal to some extent. Faerie Rogue tokens and anthems fill the role of creature removal in this deck. People splash into red for stuff like Purphoros, some sideboard cards, perhaps Crackling Doom. Those cards aren't vital to the strategy, and the pain taken in establishing your manabase and in card choices is too high to warrant a splash.
Tokens plays both IoK and Thoughtseize. The argument for splashing Terminate so that you don't have to pay life for Dismember is flawed.
December 13, 2015 11:18 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #28
Vampire Army Starters, not sure what 'all of those' cards you are referring to. Second, 'tokens' is just a label, a deck is a deck, and we are obviously not talking about making the classic tokens list here, but a varient. In fact, we are not even supossed to be talking about token lists here, this was supposed to be about Butcher of the Horde, lol. I really dont care what you want to label the deck as, call it tokens, or mardu control, or just mardu, or just 'deck'. The label 'tokens' means nothing really, so "not playing tokens any more" is a rather moot point.
December 13, 2015 11:19 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #29
GlistenerAgent What exactly in my post to you was me 'being an ass'? I did not insult you in any way. So please, dont be an ass by calling me an ass for no reason.
And I made no arguement for splashing red in order to play terminate over dismember, you came up with that all on your own.
December 13, 2015 11:22 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
I think that he's discussing the addition of Bolts, Helixes and Terminates.
Sure, you can call it whatever you want. It's just not "Tokens with a splash" anymore. I don't think an actual token deck should have a splash. A three-color midrange deck is different.
December 13, 2015 11:25 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #31
Your tone is not very polite, and the sarcasm does not create a happy atmosphere. That's what made me say that you are being an ass.
I quote:
"And you shouldnt need to run dismember if you have access to PtE, Terminate, ect"
I think that VampireArmy was referring to adding Bolts, Helixes and Terminates to a tokens deck. Yes, you can call it whatever you want, but surely don't call it "BW Tokens with a splash". I hold that tokens doesn't need a splash and wouldn't be good with a splash. Mardu Midrange is different.
Since this discussion started with "I don't understand why RW or BW Tokens won't be good with a splash", I think we've settled that issue. Enjoy Mardu!
December 13, 2015 11:29 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #33
Tokens: the aggro-midrange deck that focuses on making opposing 1 for 1 removal as bad as possible. You're talking about taking token generators out and adding in controlling cards. You listed quite a few. What else are you cutting then? The deck hardly plays anything else to begin with. Your shitting up your mana base and being forced to drop one of the best cards in the deck because...why?
I've played a variant of mardu tokens but tokens not tokens like zanes tokens. It's a tempo-midrange deck that happens to run a few token genetators
December 13, 2015 11:30 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #34
GlistenerAgent Thanks for clearing up what vampire army said. But again, this forum post is not about a tokens list, or ANY list for that matter, whatever you want to call it.
December 13, 2015 11:31 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #35
So... Butcher of the Horde.
Whatever deck you're playing him in, include some number of Painful Truths. Bonkers.
December 13, 2015 11:34 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #36
He can finish a game well enough. Normally he competes with Olivia Voldaren for deck space though. You can run both i guess
December 13, 2015 11:37 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #37
GlistenerAgent There was no 'tone' or 'sarcasm' in my post, Im sorry you got offended over it though, lol.
And no, this discussion started with 'What do you think of Butcher of the Horde'?
And yes, there is a big difference between playing red 'in order to replace dismember with terminate', and 'already playing red and white and have access to PtE and Terminate that already do what dismember does, so dont need to run dismember'. Two completely different things there that I think you are confusing.
December 13, 2015 11:38 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #38
Whatever. Let's agree to disagree, this conversation about Percy is going nowhere.
As I stated, the major drawback on Butcher is the colors. Losing board position is not nice either, because your opponent can easily two-for-one or three-for-one you on the same play. If he said "sac: five ~ protection from X", that would be great (Cartel Aristocrat on wings?), but it doesn't match as is. It might eventually find a home (once Mardu gets some serious stuff), but as of right now, it doesn't really have any.
December 13, 2015 11:42 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #39
VampireArmy I agree, Ive been kinda wishy washy over which one is going to be more applicable. If only Butcher could sac himself I wouldnt fear him running into Olivia, but as it is I dont know, butcher can(emphasis here) have more of an immediate impact, but locking down the board with olivia and 7 mana is pretty killer. Might just depend on the number of lands that end up getting run? I dunno.
December 13, 2015 11:43 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #40
FAMOUSWATERMELON As I said, I like Persecutor, I just dont think he is quite as playable(especially in a standalone environment) as Butcher. But yeah, agree to disagree :)
December 13, 2015 11:46 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #41
I'm partial because I build tribal/guild decks, but I run him in Mardu for the evasive finisher. Vanilla without a sacrifice but also above curve. He's kinda like Firemane Avenger, good vanilla creature that doesn't reach it's full potential without support, but can be the extra push you need to win.
December 14, 2015 1:04 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #42
JonathanSamurai Thanks for the well stated response, thats a pretty good analogy to make. I agree, he is way above curve and with support becomes quite threatening.
December 14, 2015 1:20 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #43
For a 4 drop, there's almost always something else you want to play more. Olivia and Parents come to mind immediately as the better options.
December 14, 2015 2:12 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #44
JexInfinite Parents wont win you the game in any hurry, and olivia requires more resources to be sank into her. Parents fill a different role in the deck I think basically. Olivia is a closer match, but I would hesitate to say that Id almost always want to cast her over Butcher. She is balling, and has seen a lot more play than Butcher, but I think a fair amount of that has to do with the fact that she has been around longer, and her colors are much more played than mardu as of yet. But fair enough I suppose.
December 14, 2015 3:02 a.m.
The thing you have to understand though is that most 4 drops need to win games on the spot or at least imediately impact the board to be playable. Cryptic Command, for example is pretty much the most massive 2-for-1 blue can get their hands on. Splinter Twin is a inst-win. Siege Rhino is a helix and a body that can block favourably with almost everything. Compared to that Butcher of the Horde is a decent body but nothing else UNLESS you already have presence. And if you already have presence then you're probably doing ok in a large number of cases.
December 14, 2015 4:42 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #46
Olivia requires an answer, or will win the game. Parents develop your board state considerably. Butcher sits around being passive by itself. Parents and Olivia are also significantly easier to cast than Butcher.
Like Chief said, Butcher is better when you're ahead, whilst Parents are good when you're behind, and Olivia will just win within a couple turns.
December 14, 2015 4:51 a.m.
Thats not strictly true though. A 4 mana threat that swings for 5 every turn AND has a form of evasion is not completely passive and will certainly win quicker that Olivia does.
Butcher requires an answer or will win the game too, I believe. And in many senses is the better win condition out of it and Olivia in a non-attrition deck that doesn't want to make the game go super long.
December 14, 2015 4:55 a.m.
What I dislike about it is that it's a risky inclusion. Poor against removal heavy decks, and poor when behind. Also no ETB which means it'll sometimes sit in hand, not able to contribute.
December 14, 2015 5:03 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #49
Olivia will get much bigger than Butcher a lot faster.
December 14, 2015 5:11 a.m.
Eh. If you play her T4 you'll require 4 of your 5 mana available on T5 just to turn her into an equivalent threat (from 3/3 to 5/5 where butcher is 5/4). By T6 she'll be legitimately bigger but its repeated investment. I guess they both swing for 5 on T5 but butcher does it without costing pseudo 8-mana. She's scary though, for sure.
Unlife says... #2
He doesn't dodge Victim of Night and can be chumped. I like the idea of him but I'm not sure how successful he could be. I do think you would have to build a deck around him but I also think there are better four drops that don't require as much support
December 13, 2015 7:05 p.m.