How Good are the New Innistrad Dual Lands?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 8, 2022, 11:34 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
The new Innistrad block provided a new cycle of dual lands (Deathcap Glade, Deserted Beach, and so forth), which I appreciate, and I especially like how WotC printed a full cycle of ten dual lands, rather than half a cycle of five dual lands, as they too often do.
Naturally, I am wondering how those dual lands compare to other cycle of dual lands, so I wish to ask others about their opinions of those lands.
The best dual lands of all are obviously the original dual lands (Bayou, Tundra, Plateau, and so forth), but those are too expensive for all but the most hardcore of players, so I shall not mention them any further in this thread.
After the originals, the second-best dual lands are the shock lands (Hallowed Fountain, Sacred Foundry, Godless Shrine, and so forth), which are nearly as good as the originals, with only a very minor downside.
After that, however, it is difficult to say what the next-best cycle is; I say that the "battle lands" (Cinder Glade, Canopy Vista, and so forth), the "check lands" (Glacial Fortress, Sunpetal Grove, Isolated Chapel, and so forth), and the filter lands (Cascade Bluffs, Wooded Bastion, Sunken Ruins, and so forth) are all contenders for the title of third-best dual lands, so I am not certain where the new Innistrad lands rank in comparison to them.
What does everyone else say about this? How good are the new Innistrad dual lands?
Grubbernaut says... #3
For commander: They're fine 3rd-string lands, but the only place I see them played is 2-color decks. In 3+, there's enough of everything else that can enter untapped all the time.
For standard I'm sure they're excellent.
January 9, 2022 12:13 a.m.
In my opinion are good but not as good as the check lands or show lands. I think that mention appart the original dual lands. The best sets will be: Pain Lands Show and Check Lands Battle lands and the New Innistrad dual lands.
And I settled that order because you need two or more lands for the Innistrad dual lands and two or more basic lands for the battle lands.
January 9, 2022 12:16 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #5
EDH perspective first:
imo they're VERY situational. I don't think they are by any means auto-includes, even in decks with very color-intensive costs. Not being able to play one T2 and thusly cast a ramp spell that same turn is a MAJOR disadvantage, and their lack of fetchability (in a landscape of fetchlands, slow fetchlands, Farseeks, Nature's Lores, Three Visitss) makes the tangolands ("battlelands" as they appear to also be called) seem above and beyond this new cycle.
Since commander is an increasingly fast format, I honestly don't think folks should be running lands that don't activate until T3. Again, it puts you miles behind to not be able to ramp on T2 on the back of one of these things. At least with the tangos (battlelands), you can fetch one T1, guarantee the downside of ETB'ing tapped is mitigated, and ramp off it T2.
In addition--the bond lands exist! Rejuvenating Springs, Spectator Seating, etc are infinitely better than this cycle, and not even that expensive atm (pick them up now, WotC is shit at reprinting good land cycles).
Ok. Now for some other-format perspectives...
In Historic, the only place I could see these is in Jeskai or Grixis control, maybe Esper control too. Past that, they just seem too slow for what is essentially a T5 format these days.
January 9, 2022 2:15 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #6
Commander is an increasingly fast format because of the cry for not ramping on turn 2 being a death sentence. You can still Farseek off of one of these if you play it turn 1. The only turn they're bad is turn 2, and if you have to play it tapped turn two, you should probably have mulligan'd your hand. I'll play Deserted Beach over Seachrome Coast in any commander deck. Which doesn't mean I'll play it, to be honest, I think it goes the two-colored equivalent of:
Horizon land if available (Horizon Canopy and such)
Prairie Stream but only with fetches
Irrigated Farmland better with fetches, cycling still solid
Glacial Floodplain higher with fetches, of course
And then all the tapped minor downside stuff like Razortide Bridge or Tranquil Cove or a Campus for enemy colors, whatever fits your deck for synergies could raise those too of course.
That's the general order I'd consider them to include in my 2-color deck if available, I guess.
January 9, 2022 3:52 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #7
I'm going to have to say that first, Fastlands Seachrome Coast are actually very good in cEDH or in any deck that never really has cards that cost more than 3. Also, show lands Port Town are just guildgates 99% of the time.
For the Innistrad slow lands . . . great budget lands, 10/10 for that role, but outside of the fact that they're gonna drop to $1-2 pretty soon, and then stay there(and if they don't . . . something's messed up, they're NOT better than the checklands and the checklands are cheaper) they're not all that great.
Of course, having very solid lands on a budget is a good thing for EDH, even if they're a bit clunky
January 9, 2022 4:56 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #8
2.5/5
They're great on a budget but likely won't make waves in any format. Will likely only be played in casual edh and have a small run in standard.
January 10, 2022 5:54 p.m.
In EDH they are very good, but get worse the more of them you have in a deck. If you've got a 2-color deck they are a no-brainer. In a three color deck they're pretty good. In four or five colors you're much more likely to run into multiples of them in an opening hand if you're trying to run all the color combinations. I'd say the OG duals, shock lands, battle lands, and check lands are all better almost universally better.
They aren't cEDH playable.
January 10, 2022 6:21 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #10
Honestly, in edh
1) duals
2) fetches
3) shocks
4) Rainbows
5) Good utility lands/lands that can produce more than 1 mana that don't bounce back to your hand/lands that give your other lands an additional land type
There are a lot of solid utility lands but I'm too lazy to list em all - a lot of good edh lands fall into this category
6) battlebond lands
7) horizon lands
8) pain lands
9) slow lands with a land type
10) snow basics
Everything else will likely fall into the budget/casual building category unless they print something strictly better.
January 10, 2022 7:06 p.m.
I really like them. I think there is alot of cEDH feedback on here. To me they have a pretty high floor to them. If you are keeping 2 land hands then I don't see why you wouldn't play this tapped turn 1. I have really yet to actually play them in a circumstance where I even had to play one tapped yet in MANY games playtesting. More often than not I am more annoyed by the ones that want you to have <2 as turn 4 & later is a more important time to be on-curve in my playgroup. With playtesting they have been just below the Battlebond lands which is saying something. Considering my Luxury Suite is worth $40 yet my Haunted Ridge has playtested functionally just as well... I'd say they are being underestimated on here.
January 11, 2022 1:50 p.m.
Expanding on that; the couple of games where I did play them tapped, I just cherry-picked them that way because I kept 2 land hands without a guarantee of getting a 3rd land, so I played them tapped 1st & then typically drew into lands or ramp by time I hit turn 2.
January 11, 2022 2 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #13
Gleeock I think the issue is that there's a lot of lands that I'd rather play tapped T1: Tangos, Shocks, Snow Duals, Bicycles, Triomes (I know those aren't duals, but they're still relevant to this current argument)... it gets to the point where they're just not often a better card to have in hand than most of the other duals that've been mentioned above.
January 11, 2022 2:34 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #14
They're "fine" but I would only play them if I already had them, didn't want to spend more money, and in a non-proxy friendly environment.
January 11, 2022 6:31 p.m.
I like them better than tango (easy floor) & Triomes are too different for good comparison + always enter tapped? Snow-duals, again, always enter tapped. The worst-case scenario for them is just so much more narrow than several of those. It has been far more rare that I am stuck with the turn 2 tapped only option on these vs having the mid-game tapped land sorrow. Several of those don't even have a probability of entering untapped, much less a high probability with the inherent flexibility on these.
Likely the economics on these lands will speak for themselves after they have been playtested for a while though. I'm guessing chilling at the ($7-$12) range eventually - perpetuating the 'cost of entry' barrier imposed by the mana base in MTG
January 11, 2022 11:03 p.m.
DragonWolf420 says... #16
Gleeock i dont see these new lands being part of the "cost of entry" barrier when theirs so many better options. these lands won't be anywhere near 7-12 once they rotate out of standard. triomes and snow duals may always enter tapped, but they also have basic land types which makes them fetchable and tutorable.
January 11, 2022 11:34 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #17
I'm willing to bet that after rotation they'll be no more than 2.50. They'll likely be shoved into supplemental product too like challenger decks right before they rotate or jammed into a pre-con down the line. I don't think anyone is saying they're bad. The general consensus seems to be that they're good for the environment they were made for: standard but when we start talking about other formats they become subpar. The snow duals are only good in pauper and outside of that they're subpar - which is okay.
January 11, 2022 11:56 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #18
For reference, none of the lands being offered as alternatives are played competitively in EDH. Snow duals, triomes, tango lands; the only lands that are played outside of niche decks that can occasionally enter tapped are fastlands, and even those are much less common. There are SO many "always untapped" lands that it's hard to justify the opportunity cost of conditionally tapped lands, especially when their downside is in the early game, which is crucial.
That being said, it's as good or better than a lot of casually played lands, so it depends on what meta you're in.
January 12, 2022 12:31 a.m.
I guess it could be the case that competitive play dominates the format, with the exception of a few corner cases that does seem to factor heavily in pricing. We will see what the future pricing says. I just haven't really seen them typically effect players turn 2 that often & otherwise they seem like a 'no-hoop-to-jump-through' 2-color land.
January 12, 2022 6:02 a.m.
I think they are slightly worse then the check-lands and I think they'll end up with a similar price once they rotate, if not slightly higher because the check-lands have been reprinted many, many times. While eventually I think these might end up in pre-cons, I think that'll take a while.
The always untapped lands some people are saying make playing these not worth it just cost more. OG duals are of course crazy. Fetches are certainly not cheap. Shocks are $10-20 (and have been forever). The battle lands from Battlebond are $15-$30. The battle lands from Commander Legends are $6-$7 now, but they will only go up in price until they are reprinted. The enemy pain lands are cheap, but the allied ones are around $9-$10. The Lorwyn/Shadowmoor filter lands aren't exactly cheap either. And cards like Mana Confluence certainly aren't cheap either.
Most EDH players are more casual and there is a huge market for cheap dual lands even if they have drawbacks. Temples get played all the time. There is a big demand for ~$5 dual lands because that price-point is something a lot more players can stomach.
One other note, unless you've got fetches or are in green, having a land type doesn't really make a land all that more useful most of the time.
January 12, 2022 10:42 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #21
The slow lands are unplayable in Modern and Legacy, the only other format that I play enough to have thoughts on is EDH and oh boy do I have some thoughts. The TL;DR is that I agree with Gleeock's assessment on power.
Lets preface this by saying that I play on the higher end of casual. I am primarily a combo player and enjoy doing "unfair" stuff in a game, but by no means am I kidding myself that I am playing cEDH. Slow lands are also unplayable in cEDH and I know this.
In a 6-10 turn sub-hour long game of EDH slowlands are perfectly playable. They become even more playable the slower your meta is. Any keepable hand is going to guarantee that they come in untapped if you draw them, if one is in the opener it isn't a huge deal to play it tapped turn 1.
My positive opinion of slow lands may also come from the fact that when it comes to deck building I am more of a tuner than a brewer. So, card assessment happens in context of a deck, not in a complete vacuum. My typical deck is 2 or 3 colors. It contains enough lands with basic types that I don't need more fetch/Nature's Lore/Farseek targets for fixing, but few enough that any two lands is a much smaller ask than a land with one of two specific basic types. Basic count is low enough that tangos aren't ideal. Any of the "guildgate with a minor upside" have the downside of ALWAYS coming in tapped and so are going to be placed lower than slow lands.
If pressed (and I am pressing myself because you asked people's opinions on how good slow lands are) in my decks in my EDH meta I would put my top 10 2 color land cycles as:
-
Fetches
-
ABUR Duals (Never personally going to have any)
-
Shocks
-
Battlebond Lands
-
Filters
-
Pain Lands
-
Horizon Lands
-
Slow Lands
-
Check Lands
-
Fast Lands
Honorable mention of Tango Lands in case someone has a problem with fetches on my list of 2 color land cycles.
January 12, 2022 10:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #22
Shoot, I just noticed that I forgot Pathways. Honestly once you get below Shocks it is mostly down to personal preference as to the exact order of land cycles. I know that many people wouldn't put filters as high as I have them, but I am greedy with mana pip density and the possibility of a turn 2 Necropotence off of Forest, Birds of Paradise, Twilight Mire makes my little combo player heart all a flutter.
January 12, 2022 10:44 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #23
Gidgetimer - I forgot pathways too. I'd put them over snow basics but I find I only want them in 2 color decks - in 3+ rainbows/shocks/fetches/duals all the way lol. Though I will say the full art/alternate version are beautiful.
LordBlackblade says... #2
Other than not having types, the slow lands are just better versions of the battle lands.
I would also argue they function better than the check lands in complex mana bases that don't run a lot of basics.
Add to that, they are really only troublesome the first two turns of the game (a minority of most games which usually go to at least turn 6) and they seem really good to me. I've included them in lieu of the battle lands in all of my decks.
January 8, 2022 11:57 p.m.