Is my custom card legendary wall balanced for EDH?
Custom Cards forum
Posted on May 14, 2023, 10:52 p.m. by StopShot
Initial card concept: Create a commander that effectively works like Sentinel of the Eternal Watch in shutting down problem creatures in combat. However, instead of denying the option to attack, the creature's controller is given a risk-and-reward choice if they choose to attack with the chosen creature via while my commander retains its defensive capabilities and deterrence from attacking through if the enemy chooses to attack with their selected creature. Card must be in as it is my desired colors to play with.
Important note: I understand the card has a lot of old and underused keywords. The playgroup doesn't mind that specifically, it just needs to be balanced and not over-powered for the format it is being used in.
Glossary of unfamiliar terms:
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Wither: Whenever this creature deals damage to another creature, put that many -1/-1 counters on it instead.
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Lifelink + Wither: Wither doesn't prevent its damage from being dealt - it modifies how the damage is being dealt. Lifelink still gains life off of this modified form of damage. (TL;DR lifelink still works normally with wither.)
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Protection from creatures with haste: Damage dealt to this creature by creatures with haste is fully prevented. This creature can not be targeted by the abilities of creatures with haste. This effect only applies for creatures that have haste.
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Protection from you: This creature's controller can not target this creature. This creature's controller can not enchant/equip this creature. This creature's controller can not damage this creature with sources they control. Enemies of this creature's controller can still target, enchant and damage this creature as though it didn't have this ability. (TL;DR - I can not buff/protect my own commander - this is an intended downside that doesn't affect my opponents.)
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Provoke: Whenever this creature attacks, you may target a creature defending player controls. The targeted creature untaps and must block the creature that "provoked" it if able.
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Skulk: This creature can only be blocked by creatures with power equal to or less than this creature's power.
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Provoke + Skulk: If a creature "provokes" a creature that is unable to block it, the provoked creature will untap, but will not be able to block the provoking creature. If the "provoked" creature is unable to block the creature provoking it, then it is allowed to block other creatures instead. (TL;DR, provoking creatures that can't block your creature does effectively nothing.)
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"Can block creatures with haste as though they are attacking you:" If a creature with haste attacks one of my opponents, I can choose to have my commander block that creature. If I control a creature with haste and I have it attack one of my opponents, I can choose to block my own creature with my commander.
I don't think it's overpowered, really, but there's a lot going on here. This card takes a while to read, longer to understand, and its abilities seem like they would just slow the game down.
For starters, the type line is flavorful, but feels a little arbitrary. Does it need to be both an Elemental and a Spirit? Are you trying to use this in a tribal deck?
While none of the keywords it has really contradict each other, some of them seem unnecessary. Defender is fine, if it's a Wall. Reach is a little out of place. Lifelink and wither, I would pick at most one of these. Protection from creatures with haste ties in with the next section, so I'll discuss that later. Protection from you seems awkward and unnecessary, and isn't always a drawback (it would survive pretty much any "damage each creature" effect you control, like Pyrohemia/Pestilence, Blasphemous Act, Crypt Rats, and lots more).
The second ability should be a targeted effect. Granting provoke seems odd when you can choose to block (which as Caerwyn mentioned is very questionable under the rules). Granting haste is fine, but you can always choose to block with protection, so I'm not sure what the intent is here. Skulk reduces the effectiveness of provoke even further. I also don't understand the intent of the toughness boost.
The third ability is one of those things that makes sense intuitively, and I understand how it's supposed to work, but the actual rules can't support it. If you don't have any rules lawyers in your group, and don't use this card outside your group, you can probably get away with it, but expect some weird corner cases that tie everything up.
The last sentence should be its own ability, and it's pretty niche but self supporting.
If I may try to reinterpret this card:
Krii, Manifest of Spite Show
Of course, your group should get final say, but in my opinion, this card as it stands is too complicated for what it's trying to do and will result in a stalled-out game as people try to figure out what they can and should do with it.
May 15, 2023 2:38 a.m.
@legendofa, Hello! Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your feedback a lot!
The creature typing really isn't a big deal to me as I'm describing what the AI artwork generated. (My art input was just water-color fantasy wall/barricade with red hues, and I picked the one that was the most fitting with MTG art-style.) Reach was also picked over flying based off of card art and it didn't seem off with recent red creatures such as Tuktuk Rubblefort, Brimstone Trebuchet and Weaver of Lightning. As for why have reach or flying, Sentinel of the Eternal Watch the inspiration behind this would be able to lockdown a flier per combat if it needed to and so this card would share that similar capacity.
"Protection from you" and +0/+2 are both used as a means to make combat less messy. Being able to block regardless of player you're attacking could be obnoxious if I slap on a pump spell on my wall or if I use protection attachments to deny enemy removal effects and the +0/+2 counterracts what combat damage the commander deals, so the opponent needs not factor it into potential blocking power. It makes the behavior of an omnipresent wall more predictable and less oppressive. Plus, it's beneficial if the attacking creature survives combat as it will be weaker due to wither making it an easier target for the opposing player to get revenge on during that player's next turn and thus giving me another opportunity to block. (Hence why its name implies it manifests spite. You snipe an enemy's creature, your creature gets smaller making it easier to be sniped back.)
I ran into some spacing issues with the second ability, and what I came up with was able to fit, but I didn't know it would turn a triggered ability into something that's half static ability and half triggered. I'll have to fix that before showing it to the group.
Provoke was given to tempt my opponents into attacking each other and sniping one another's creatures while my wall reaps benefits off of their fueds. Say I'm player A and Player B's 4/4 is going to provoke Player C's 3/3 for example as a "free trade." Kind of like a mini Invasion Plans or Master Warcraft. The problem with provoke is it snowballs hard if you have the dominant boardstate of creatures over everyone else. If I give their biggest creature provoke it can beat anything it wants furthering their boardstate advantage, but if I give their weakest creature provoke their weakest creature plus their stronger creatures can turn sideways and the smaller creature would be able to force the enemy's best blocker to block the smaller creature instead of the bigger threats coming their way. Skulk makes it a lot less of a "win-more" effect in a number of ways by (1) stopping the weakest creature from forcing a block from best blocker in times of all-out assault (2) allows under-developed boardstates to snipe small/mid-sized creatures more safely from the over-developed boardstates as skulk prevents big creatures from double blocking with the weaker provoked creature that's forced to block. Besides, the intent was never meant for the chosen creature to provoke my wall, as the chosen creature would also have haste and given my wall has protection from haste, it would be an invalid provoke target. By giving an enemy's creature both haste and provoke I'm making it more favorable for the chosen creature to attack someone else and less favorable for it to attack me if that makes sense.
I do like your version of my card and I will probably tinker around with it if that's alright with you.
May 15, 2023 5:54 a.m.
Hmm, what if the combat ability was something like "creatures with haste must attack Krii, Manifest of Spite if able", that way it might clean up the combat step a little because they are always attacking you, and I don't think it would be OP with the draw ability because players with haste creatures could find some way to tap them, and plus, a six mana commander that will accrue value over time doesn't really seem too overpowered to me even if it gets a little bump.
May 16, 2023 7:53 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #7
keyword soup is soup.
As for blocking creatures who aren't attacking you, the best way I can logic my way through that would be something akin to the following:
": Gain control of this creature and untap it. It must block if able. Activate this only during combat after attackers are declared. Any defending player may activate this ability, and they may each only activate it once per turn. Return ~ to it's owner at the end of combat."
So if there are 3 players
- Me
- John
- Ted
John attacks Ted. I own this creature.
Ted, being the defending player, could activate the ability and gain control of my creature to use it as a blocker, temporarily.
In terms of legality, this is the only way I can see it not violating a ton of rules.
May 20, 2023 2:03 a.m.
I think that is more messy than it needs to be TypicalTimmy - if could result in multiple individuals fighting over who gets to control the blocker.
Instead, something like “Target defending player gains control of ~ until end of combat. ~ must block this turn if able.” keeps everything nice and simple - the owner controls the ability, no messy stack, no players messing with timing to try and be the last one holding the ball, no additional language needed to clarify timing, since there will not be a valid target at any other time.
You’d have to change the draw ability so it gave its owner, not its controller, a card, but that’s not that big of a change.
Caerwyn says... #2
]This feels like a rough draft of an Unset card, not something for an actual game of Commander.
For starters, there are formatting issues, like a triggered ability imbedded inside a static ability. Also, while you say your group is cool with older abilities, the word salad of abilities presented here looks like an amateur throwing a bunch of words at a wall, then choosing not to edit.
But the real problem is being able to block when you are not the defending player. That gets messy under the rules - so messy it is the kind of thing which really has no place outside of Unsets. There’s very likely timing and rules interactions which will not play well with your blocking ability - and a custom card which doesn’t play nice with the rules is a custom card which shouldn’t be played.
All told, I think you need to take a red pen to the card and make some substantial edits.
May 15, 2023 1:40 a.m.