Please Enlighten Me
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 22, 2020, 12:40 p.m. by RambIe
I can't help but feel i'm missing some vital peace of information that everyone else seems to know
When discussing the cards i love to play
and card recommendations i suggest others to use
I seem to bother alot of people
I often hear warnings
The cards are poor choices
They would only work in a weak casual environment
In a cedh game they would be useless
and so on
now when talking about cedh
im assuming the reference is in the main stream decks
like Thrasios, Triton Hero,
Kess, Dissident Mage,Zur the Enchanter, etc
you know the decks you see on youtube channels like playing with power
the ones listed all over edhrec
the ones that any google search of cedh
will give you a complete listing of how to build and play
the ones that when ever i go to an lgs now days there at least 1 player in every pod playing
i've never struggled against these decks
i don't mean to offend anyone but its kinda like going against precons
meaning i already know what it is and how to stop it before the game begins
therefore i don't perceive it as a threat
am i missing something ?
i was always under the impression that
competitive edh meant consistent win con by turn 5
semi casual means consistent win con turns 5+
and casual means win con turns 10+
is my understanding of competitive play wrong?
plakjekaas says... #3
The competitive decks I play against will Ad Nauseam for 23 cards on turn 2, piecing together an immediate win from fast mana and very cheap card advantage/combo's, showing at least 2 free counterspells for protection and disruption. If you weren't a blue deck with a counterspell up or a stacks deck that went Sol Ring into Null Rod, you'll have some struggle to answer that.
cEDH decks are built to deal with exactly that, because on a cEDH table, everyone will be trying exactly that. They don't hold up as well in a game mixed in with more casual decks, because they play on an entirely different axis. cEDH decks are built around scary commanders, showing immediately they're a threat, but they pay something like 15 life from lands, Sylvan Library and phyrexian mana spells in a game.
Playing against casual decks that play creatures that actually attack for a bunch, they're not prepared to defend against that. They play less removal, less boardwipes and more counterspells, because they should be stopping non-creature victories while employing their own. That's their gameplan. When they don't get to combo fast on a casual table, the Timmy Plays will easily best them.
A single cEDH deck struggles on an all casual table the same way a single casual deck struggles on a full cEDH table. They're not meant to play in that environment.
December 22, 2020 1:03 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life
....
i normally keep my decks private
but ill temporally unhide one for a few days
this is a current deck im toying with timmy temur
i joking call it timmy temur because its just dragons to the face.
and its casual because its not going to assemble a win con till turn 9
but ive been having alot of good laughs with it
December 22, 2020 1:09 p.m.
o also heres a deck i don't have anymore Windgrace *Rip*
December 22, 2020 1:19 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #6
As for the cards you like, the best way to have magic, is to have fun.
Most players will suggest stuff they know will lead to faster wins, and the fastest wins are conjured in cEDH. Don't let anyone tell you that it's wrong not to play cEDH. In my experience, the best way to have fun is to play cards that make you happy when they resolve. That's very subjective, different for everyone. I'll play Stern Judge with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if I want, even though it's a horrible and convoluted way to advance a game. It makes me happy to tap it, call "Judge!" and deal 7-10 damage to everyone, those are the best games of commander.
Some will think it's an awesome combo, some will shiver in disgust reading this. I'd rather try to understand how others have fun than burning down their ideas. Even though they won't work against $1000 decks.
December 22, 2020 1:24 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #7
I don’t intend to be dismissive, but at the risk of sounding like I do I’ll say this: in my 25-year experience, all M:tG discussions usually tumble into a “X card totally sinks Y card.” It’s not vindictive or spiteful, it’s just a natural progression and should be treated as such. I’ve been told things like “that’s not good enough because XXX” and I generally reply, in a good natured way and with a grin, “better hope you draw it then, huh?” I genuinely and sincerely appreciate each of the interactions I’ve gotten from all of you, even if it’s just a +1 on one of my fly-by-night decks...but I never take any of the negative ones to heart. I let it slide, because that’s just part of the larger process. Don’t take it personally when you get tackled on the (American) football field ;p
December 22, 2020 1:25 p.m.
thank you plakjekaas & FormOverFunction
its not that any of it bothers
i think their advice is meant to help
its just im starting to think im missing something
i play against these main stream decks all the time
even with my casual decks and i'm not struggling
im starting to think somewhere is a set of secret amazing decks and players that have been hidden from me.....
December 22, 2020 1:33 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #9
Having taken a look at your dragon deck, RambIe, I feel comfortable saying that if you get a good start and a few dragons up in the air, many cEDH decks will have a hard time not getting pummeled. I wouldn't assume that your deck would win most of the time, but I could see an aerial assault taking out a few players ;)
December 22, 2020 1:58 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #10
As a beginner at cEDH: it's very easy to mess up your plays with decks that have so many hard choices to make every turn. The quality in the cards in your deck can only do so much to help you win. In the end it's the pilot of the deck that wins the game, not the deck itself. It's really hard to choose the right things to counter, especially when all your opponents are mostly stacking incremental value. Answering everything will leave you empty handed, unable to defend yourself. Not answering anything will leave you behind, because keeping answers in hand means you're not working on board presence. If everyone else would play a cEDH main stream deck, at least there would be the obvious red flags that have to be stopped to not lose the game. They're not as obvious in a janky tribal deck.
December 22, 2020 1:59 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #11
Ramble, I think you’re probably safe in that sense. People who commit additional time to M:tG (like here) are generally in the higher-tier of folks who really widen their scope of learning on it. You’re a sharp tool, here in the shed ;p
December 22, 2020 2 p.m.
I don't think you are missing anything at all and your scale is mostly where decks want to be but tier 0-1 are even faster than turn 5 nowadays.
I find many people posting here will only accept top tier card suggestions and call anything else junk or bad or horrible or whatever. I wouldn't let it bother you.
It helps to be sure of the competitive level of the thread you are in before making suggestions or just qualify your suggestion a little to save the bombastic replies.
There are many card choices for many decks and even the tier 1 stuff has a little latitude after the staples.
And any suggestions are always good to help people think about the cards and their interactions.
December 22, 2020 2:31 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #13
I wouldn't equate cedh to just "winning" on X turn. The ceiling is turn 1-3 with the thassa's Oracle lines but you'll find games will grind for hours if you're all on the same page.
Also, it's probably just the piolet error. Just because someone slaps together a TnT deck doesn't mean they'll win every time; they can misplay, miss triggers or mulligan poorly. CEDH is all about making the most optimal choice and even the most seasoned players can fumble but if they're fumbling on a consistent basis perhaps find a new play group because free wins are great in a prize supported tournment setting but will stagnate you as a player in every other sense.
December 22, 2020 7:25 p.m.
Not all CEDH decks are equal either. Your definition of all CEDH decks winning by turn 5 doesn't hold true, especially since the banning of Flash CEDH has slowed down and the slower but more robust responsive decks tend to perform better than the super fast active decks.
The aggressive decks are extremely fast but fragile. Certain casual decks can win consistently against ones like this because casual decks run a lot of the same removal. A Swan Song or Swords to Plowshares or Assassin's Trophy played from a casual deck does the same thing that it does when played from a Cedh deck.
Additionally, politics play a role. When 1 CEDH deck sits in a pod with 3 casuals, all 3 casuals should be focused on the CEDH deck.
December 23, 2020 9:02 a.m.
i should have been more descriptive
when i said
competitive edh meant consistent win con by turn 5
semi casual means consistent win con turns 5+
and casual means win con turns 10+
its in reference to the tuning of the deck
if a deck is tuned well enough to consistently produce a win con turn 5 or sooner
that does not mean every game will be over in 5 turns
it just means if gone unchecked the deck is capable of doing it consistently
and yes to date in main stream there has been only a couple that have been recorded to go off by turn 3
but i assure you there are many edh decks that consistently end the game turns 3-4 if gone unchecked
you dont see them main stream because
partly all the data has not been recorded
and mostly because the majority of them do so by removing one player per turn till t3-4
since this is not a guarantee win the game tactic
and also it leaves 3-4 rounds to be put in check
most disregard these decks as cedh qualified
but that does not make them any less lethal
for one example
i personally played against a
Virtus the Veiled & Gorm the Great
that was tuned to level to consistently end the game by turn 3 if gone unchecked
it will never see the glory of main stream listing
because in cedh theres just to many ways to stop it from winning
however i personally still consider it as competitive
because it is still remarkably deadly
no matter what everyone at the table is going to have to blow resources to keep it in check
December 23, 2020 10:01 a.m.
@RNR_Gaming
alot of the people i was referring to playing against is rando's at lg's on edh night
as for my play group it is at all levels
couple have only been playing for a year or two
most are veteran magic players, 4 of the 12 have played multiple grand prix's
so we have a pretty good balance
if cedh decks are slowing down and starting to tune after turn 5
how is that still competitive? isnt that just a normal deck?
and thank you for responding to this thread
this is the part that im referring to were i feel i'm not understanding something.
December 23, 2020 10:31 a.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #17
So, I have a dude that goes to my lgs that has a dci with 3 didgets and has an awesome collection BUT he sucks. Theres also a judge who's been playing a little less than me with a lot of IQ wins under his belt with multiple invitational invites; it's weird the variance that occurs with players overall skill level. Just playing a long time doesnt mean a player is good. Experienced sure. But the level of play they attain is dependent on their level of competition. If they're souly edh players chances are they probably aren't going to be as skilled as they could be.
Anyways, I'm rambling. Cedh isnt slowing down persay but interaction is rampant and you wont hit the ceiling every time.
December 23, 2020 12:12 p.m.
Ok first off, you know im totally cool with rambling.
Second, i completely agree that skill levels are not always equivalent to time played
also I know people saying thier play group is good is like parents saying there child is cute
So i referenced experience to support my claim.
That my play group and many of the randos at the store are pretty good players
Im starting to think maybe its just me failing to understand whats considered competitive...
or maybe im failing to understand what is considered casual
Becouse if the deciding factor is heavy player interaction/responses thats just normal game play.
why would anyone build a deck that doesnt include basic utility...
December 23, 2020 12:28 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #19
So, competitive is more of an approach or mentality; where one approaches the game with the goal of winning in the most optimal way available. If someone just wants to jam their foiled out sliver overlord deck and beat down with lords they're casual.
The disparity is in the approach, intent and goals. You'll be able to spot the difference fairly easily at a command fest or if you have the means to travel around to different lgses.
December 23, 2020 1:46 p.m.
@RNR_Gaming sigh... thank you for trying
if that's the basis then almost everyone has been playing cedh since before cedh became a thing
and nothing is new....
As for trying different lgses i live in the suburbs of chicago
i had 5 stores in my normal rotation pre 2020 new normal
now im down to 2 sometimes 3
December 23, 2020 2:45 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #21
I mean. I use to think that there was only one approach to the game too. Until this guy had a mental break down when I played Maelstrom Wanderer. Like, it wasn't even that great of a deck from my prospective now but the guy threw the biggest tantrum about edh being a casual format - like, dude it was a tournment with good prize support and this dude lost it when I won turn 4-5. They had to ask him to leave the following week due to the spectacle he made prior to the tournments start.
I still didn't understand until I saw all of these youtubers making content on social contracts/power levels/proper etiquette for edh.
You'll get it once you see true casuals play. Theres a lot of gray area due to the limited number of big tournments.
December 23, 2020 3:33 p.m.
Ya that actually helped alot
I found a website discussing 5 rules of casual commander.
And i discovered that even my casual beat stick decks violate more then half of the article
Like in my playgroup we do play to have fun and we dont try to tilt anyone
but we are playing to win
half the fun is the politics and shenanigans of trying to combo off or stopping a combo and hitting them in the face with a fatty
every week someone tries to bring something new, some strange weired combo involving a forgotten 25 cent card
its wildly entertaining
but one thing all of us agree on is we want more games
even if we form a 10 player pod the game doesnt last more then an hour
I guess the lesson ive learned here is ive always only seen magic played one way and anyone not playing it that way, i just assumed was still learning
Lol i guess thats why so many people get offened when i try to help them......
December 23, 2020 5:52 p.m.
P.s. just for the record
If we were playing at an lgs
And you sat down with a Maelstrom Wanderer deck
I would be totally excited to see what insanity you produced with it
i often sit on responses just so i can see what people built
I would only been upset if you failed to actualy do anything
December 23, 2020 5:56 p.m.
P.s.s. or if you just did the same things ive already seen 100 times before
December 23, 2020 6:02 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #25
I'm glad I was of some help. Was trying to word what cedh is in a very easy to digest way. It's not a different format; just a different approach that goes completely against what the creators intended. Theres little variance in what's to be expected at a cedh table; where as at a casual table there's a plethora of different layers. Budget friendly, jank, upgraded precon, tribal or even block constructed decks - just because it's casual doesn't mean it has to be devoid of interaction or lack win conditions; it's more about the social aspect of communicating with the table and being transparent to an extent. Strategies and cards you like may not always be optimal at higher level tables but in a casually competetive setting they can flourish. I wish people could just enjoy the game and stopping constantly having an imaginary sword measuring contest.
December 23, 2020 6:18 p.m.
For me its all about getting a new crinkle on the brain
I care more about discovering something new
or something old played in a way i never thought of
then i do about actually winning
Lol now that i think about it
That makes perfect sense why ive always been so bothered by the thought of cedh
Why i protest staples, auto includes, card power levels,
And why i punish players so hard when they sit down with a main stream deck
Becouse the truth of it all is
If everyone just keeps playing the same things magic would be ruined for me
Huh.. i do feel enlightened thankyou
December 23, 2020 6:37 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #27
Personally, I find it difficult to cut things like Mana Drain and Force of Will the cards slap and no alternative feels up to snuff. Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are fantastic in most decks and typically set you 3 turns ahead of the pack unless your entire deck is color pips you probably want to be running these.
Building something fresh and new gets harder with each passing set due to the spread of information becoming more and more rampant. Honestly, I think if we had an unplugged period of magic things would be so cool coming back but that'd be awful for the mtg economy and content creators/website hosters.
December 23, 2020 6:51 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #28
Ramble I'm not trying to nitpick here, but why do you put so many line breaks in your writing? It makes it exceedingly difficult to read and parse because my brain assumes that a line not completely filled is the end of a paragraph and closes the thought. This makes it so that I have to try to actively understand what you are writing instead of reading it normally.
December 23, 2020 7:15 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #29
Gidgetimer just read it like a poem, that's what I do
December 23, 2020 7:23 p.m.
@RNR_Gaming
Im not against playing good cards!
When i say im against staples, i mean im against building a list of cards just to cram in every deck
@Gidgetimer
Ive always been one of those people that acceled in math but struggled with English
So i do apologize if i drive you crazy but if it helps my wife was an english major you can only imagine how badly my writing drives her insane
But to awnser your question i do it to make everything look neat and clean on the device im using
Its hard for me to read with out the breaks
@Omniscience_is_life
Lol! Good looking out
December 24, 2020 8:14 a.m.
ConsumingKiribo says... #31
I'm no expert on cEDH, but I think it's more so meta dependant. A competitive environment is so used to specific staples, but something like Archive Trap can only work in a meta that is full of fetchlands, so in a casual environment, Archive Trap is pretty useless. The same is with cEDH, the meta evolved so that specific decks stand out more, and can't easily deal with other threats. However, take everything I say with a heavy amount of salt.
December 24, 2020 8:56 p.m.
jeannieboef says... #32
If you don't like staples, then cEDH is not for you. The format could be called cAdNaus. Here game variety is based on the many many different ways these decks can get to there Wincon. So although the amount of decks on this level are limited and the decks include many of the same cards, they are often more flexible on earlier turns due to more mana being available then and the amount of card draw and tutor effects. Finding and playing the right cards at the right time is the name of the game.
January 26, 2021 5:42 a.m.
jeannieboef says... #33
Don't you wonder what a format would look like that just started with 3 Land on the field tapped?
January 26, 2021 5:47 a.m.
jeannieboef
i don't like staples because i don't like being able to accurately predict your deck just by looking at your commander
do you have any idea how boring it is to know everything someone is going to do with in the first few turns of a game ?
i know to some this may sound like non sense or arrogance, but its the result of people just grabbing combo lists, slapping in staples, and then adding a couple power cards to fill in the gaps
i have to disagree with your comment "If you don't like staples, then cEDH is not for you."
that is complete nonsense, because i don't support staples is all the more reason why commander is for me
it has more access to cards then any other format, when you include the fact that it is singleton the result is all the more reason why i would expect everyone not to keep playing the same cards over and over again
as for "Don't you wonder what a format would look like that just started with 3 Land on the field tapped?"
its called Manabond you may not of heard of it because its not a staple
January 26, 2021 9 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #35
Ramble you use the names cEDH and commander interchangeably. And they're not, not really. You're right by stating that commander has one of the biggest card pools as a format, which leaves all the space for variety and creativity.
But cEDH is a subcategory of the commander format that plays the very optimal cards it can for every purpose. If you want to remove an artifact or enchantment, there's a lot of spells that are commander legal to help you with that, but cEDH won't have a lot of use for many of those, because they will cost too much mana for them to be relevant in time. It's the difference between playing Springsage Ritual and Nature's Claim, where Nature's Claim is the staple.
Because you're looking for the very best card possible to play in every situation in cEDH, there's an amount of staples in each color that are auto-includes depending on your commander's color identity. If you'd compare cEDH lists, you'd see that:
Every deck will play Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond to be able to play their spells as fast as possible, blue decks will always have Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Mana Drain, Fierce Guardianship, Cyclonic Rift and Ponder at the very least, because those cards are the best at what they do for the cheapest of costs.
In cEDH, every color has a list of staples like that. If you want to build the "best" deck you can, there's probably over 15000 commander legal cards that are just not good enough to play. If you compare cEDH lists, you'll see that every deck that plays certain colors, will be running staples of that color. Because those cards are the most efficient to play, regarding mana cost and board impact. Combo's will be better to include if you'd need as little cards as possible, and if all those pieces will be easy to find with the tutors available in your colors.
When consistency is key, a lot of your card choices are locked. That is the essence of cEDH decks. Which you can disregard all you like, because it's not your style to play that way, that is fine. But it means you're not playing cEDH, which as a format is built on optimal card choices, therefore the decks usually feel like they're 80% staples and 20% unique gameplan (those numbers are arbitrary, I wouldn't know the exact numbers). But if you dislike playing Sol Ring because everyone plays Sol Ring, then cEDH as a way to play commander is very much not for you.
January 26, 2021 10 a.m.
plakjekaas,Sol Ring has to be one of the best examples
yes paying 1 for 2 is great value, and it seems like one of the best turn 1 plays, so everyone with out second though just auto includes it in there deck
however, its not the best fit for all decks,
infact most cedh decks run around 30 1 drops with 30 lands. that's 60 cards Sol Ring can not interact with
out of the remaining 40 cards being as efficient as possible, 30 or more only have in there mana costs
so in these decks that only have 5-10 cards that have in there casting costs how effective is Sol Ring really ?
isn't their possibly another card that would preform better in the deck?
Feather, the Redeemed as an example, personally i would take Jeweled Amulet over Sol Ring
Kenrith, the Returned King, i would take Mana Vault over Sol Ring
Najeela, the Blade-Blossom i would take Mana Crypt over Sol Ring
Urza, Lord High Artificer i would take Sol Ring over any other option
now i know with staples the status quo is just add them all so i can hope to just get any one of them
but as i already explained over 60 cards in my deck do not require any colorless mana to be cast
so what use is having access to 2-10 colorless mana on turn 2 ?
couldn't those card slots be used instead to fill a more important mechanic in my deck ?
the answer to all the questions depends on the deck
the claim that a select list of cards are so good that only they can be used and should be used in every deck is a lie
the truth is in commader no matter it being casual, cedh or anything in between we have access to 28 years worth of card printing
there is such a verity of combo and mechanics that no matter how powerful one may be it has a sever weakness to another
its not like other formats were its 1v1 and a few select blocks to pick from, in those formats yes you can create a list
this is a 1v3 format with a massive card list
even the almighty fishhulk (considered to be the best deck in the cedh listing pre flash ban) lost to a budget kess deck in its world debut
January 26, 2021 10:55 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #37
The actual use for them is the 40 other cards in your deck, of which you will have 2-3 in your opening hand on average. Even better, one of them is in your command zone, always available except for corner cases (Drannith Magistrate for example).
There is no card that will synergize with every other card in your deck. But synergizing with over 30% of your deck is actually a very good rate. That's why Jeweled Lotus is such a trap card, it works only with 1 card in your deck.
My mono W stax deck, led by Heliod, God of the Sun, plays none of the mana rocks from my previous post. It overloads on effects like Stony Silence to punish and slow down everyone at the table who does. That doesn't mean, however, that my deck doesn't run staples. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Smothering Tithe, Drannith Magistrate, Recruiter of the Guard, Weathered Wayfarer, Land Tax, Enlightened Tutor and Aven Mindcensor are all cards that any white (c)EDH deck worth its salt should include to have the best chances of winning.
But all in all, you're making a great case of which staple to use when and why, but not really how you would be able to play EDH on the highest, most consistent level without any staples. The fact that you need staples to play the most consistent decks, still holds true. It might not lead to the most interesting decks for you to play or play against, and that's fine. I said earlier in this thread, the best way to play commander, or even magic in general is the way in which you have the most fun. The way the cEDH crowd has fun is by loading up on the best staples and see who can most skillfully guide them into a win.
The Kess thing is a weird thing to say, nobody says there's only one deck to play. If that was the case, magic would be like Solitaire, you wouldn't need to play opponents if everyone would play exactly the same deck. If you'd visit the database for most accepted cEDH decks, you'd see there's endless strategies even at the highest level that are able to win at a cEDH table. However, if you'd compare these lists, there will be a LOT of overlap, because in the meta, you need to be able to stop the top combo's at instant speed while executing your own. The best cards for those jobs, will work in almost every deck that can play them, that's how they became staples. A budget Kess deck will be able to cast a Counterspell when the flash-hulk deck tries to win, all the same as another flash-hulk deck would be able to. Flash-hulk was the boogeyman of the format for a bit, because short of a counterspell, there was no way to interact or stop it. It was instant, two mana, a two card combo, easy to tutor pieces in green and blue, and usually supported by black for more tutors. When Flash resolved, there was nothing short of a Stifle-effect to stop the comboing player from winning. And they could overload on free counterspells to protect it. The combo being that cheap in both mana and opportunity cost, while being so easy to assemble and hard to stop that the best way of not losing to it, was just running your own flash-hulk deck, is why the demand for the Flash-ban was there. But any blue deck with the staple counterspells, even the cheap ones, has a chance of beating it. Budget in cEDH determines which/how many of the established staples you can play, but it doesn't eliminate the need for the best cards that are available for the common person not willing to spend a month's worth of salary for a deck. It's the difference between Counterspell and Mana Drain, not the difference between Spell Swindle and Mana Drain.
January 26, 2021 3:50 p.m.
so you do understand what i am saying
but your not acknowledging the down side of "staples"
pre cedh deck building
i want to make this a commander how can i make it work?
post cedh deck building
i want to make this a commander, heres a list of staples in these colors
i mean ffs i have even seen people put Cyclonic Rift in to Zedruu the Greathearted because there convinced it needs to be in every deck that has blue
January 26, 2021 6:54 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #39
I mostly think your assumptions of what cEDH actually entails is different from those of the ones who actually play it.
It seems your beef is more with the concept of the EDHREC website than cEDH as a subset of the whole commander format.
January 26, 2021 7:12 p.m.
RambIe says...#26
"For me its all about getting a new crinkle on the brain"
"If everyone just keeps playing the same things magic would be ruined for me"
RambIe says...#30
"When i say im against staples, i mean im against building a list of cards just to cram in every deck"
RambIe says...#34
"i don't like staples because i don't like being able to accurately predict your deck just by looking at your commander"
i think i have been pretty clear
commander has always been played competitively
the lesson i learned in the thread was that i actually did not know what commander causal is nor did i understand how retarded it is
refrence
the only difference between commander and cedh is the claim that the format should be solved which requires a databases like edhrec
since the release of "cedh" we have had card bans, mass reprints of "staples" whole sets of "training wheels" destroying collection values and add all sorts of over powered cards into the format before actually solving it
turn 0 decks have existed in commander years before "cedh"
no body has actually solved anything, to busy creating the hive mind, with reinventing and banning all as predicted from the start
and as predicted from the start - the more everyone pushes to make edh like standard and modern the more players that will leave becouse edh was the escape from those formats..
January 27, 2021 7:35 a.m.
people don't want to take the time to develop experience and skill
they just want a short cut to "be good now"
instead of getting better, just print me a more powerful card
instead of building, tuning, balancing, just give me a list
instead of working with what you have, print me more of what everyone else has
instead of learning from a loss, just ban the cards that made me loose
its just how the world is now
you all get your way so why do you all get so defensive when my one little ignored voice says i don't like it ?
is staples so much of a foundation in your life that your world turns upside down when one person says they don't support it ?
January 27, 2021 8:02 a.m.
It also hurts casual Commander when nearly every article you read about Commander makes getting your deck to cEDH competitive levels the only important goal for players. (They mention having fun too, but yeah)
This forces your card choices. Which hurts the format in general by limiting the card pool.
FNM also hurts the format. Because you don't think you need to get the staples for your deck. But everyone else at the table in your pod did get them. This can hurt your enjoyment of the game.
Discussing deck power levels before you play stops a lot of that from hurting your fun. But the onus is still there that you need to have certain cards just to "keep up".
And I agree it stifles creativity.
January 27, 2021 11:54 a.m.
MagicMarc thank you
consistent win con before turn 5 - Competitive Deck
consistent win con after turn 5 - Optimized Deck
consistent win con after turn 10 - Casual Deck
does not have a consistent win con - Jank Deck
consistent being a ratio greater then 50% of games
the "c" in "cedh" stands for copied which is the only difference between a competitive deck and a cedh deck
although i have seen "cedh" decks that would be classified as optimized 0,o
January 27, 2021 2:02 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #44
Some cards just have such an incredible power ceiling not playing them is doing yourself a disservice and putting you on the back foot before the game even starts.
It's actually harder to find synergistic cards that are only good with a specific commander that hose a specific meta. "Medium green" is a meta deck in cedh that takes advantage of the heavy reliance of artifacts by incorporating cards like Stony Silence and Collector Ouphe though these cards are still seen in some decks they're far from staples and require a significant amount of building around to be optimally effective. Basically, you have to run more dorks.
TLDR - even in cedh theres creativity. Though it's much slower and typically happens around new sets/new commanders.
January 27, 2021 6:41 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #45
I'm not defensive, I'm just telling you you're wrong in certain assumptions you're making. Please keep complaining how nobody in the world is unique but you, while you're doing so, I checked out the decks on your page.
RambIe says...#36:
"Feather, the Redeemed as an example, personally i would take Jeweled Amulet over Sol Ring"
Imagine my surprise when I found out you play Sol Ring in your Feather deck anyway. On top of that, you play Vampiric Tutor in every single black deck. Really the epitome of creative deck building there.
At the moment of writing, there's 472010 decks listed on EDHREC, and that site doesn't use data from Tappedout, so a lot more than that exist. There's only around 21000 unique commander legal cards, so there will be overlap between decks. Of those 21000, a lot of them are bad cards. Even Wizards of the Coast admits that. Of the ones that aren't bad, there's still some that are obviously better than others. Those have a chance of becoming staples. In the age of internet and information sharing, you don't have to find out which are which anymore. You have the option to learn from others' mistakes, there's no need to make them all yourself. If you insist to do so anyway, that's on you. People who try to stop you from wasting time finding out some cards are not as good as others you could play, are not evil. They're not all lazy, they're still playing the game, so they're still gaining experience and skill. That's not something you can only get from finding obscure cards that nobody plays. Experience and skill come with finding out in a game which spells you should cast when, and why. Even if everyone would play the exact same 100 cards, some people will win more consistently than others, because they know what cards will win the game when left alone, and what cards are not worth the removal spell. Playing with established, "solved" decks will make you a better player, especially if you play them against other "solved" decks. You'll find out quickly that using Fierce Guardianship on a bad target will cost you, possibly the game. When you go back to optimized, casual or jank decks from there, you'll still be able to estimate better how to use your suboptimal nonstaples in the best way, because in "solved" decks, actual skill and luck are the main things influencing who wins.
EDHREC wasn't made to tell you what cards to play, it was made so you just don't need to read twenty-one thousand pieces of cardboard to find what works with your Commander, making deck building less time consuming so you can devote more time to actually playing the game after your deck is built.
We've had ONE ban influenced by cEDH. Just Flash. Because it lead to a lack of skill and variety, EXACTLY what you're trying to preach in this topic. A year before that, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Paradox Engine were banned, because the casuals, the non-$$-staple crowd, were losing too much to them and complaining. Banning every deck that overperforms out of existence is a Standard problem, every single card that got banned in magic apart from Flash and Lutri, the Spellchaser in the last year and a half, is still legal in Commander. Stop spreading lies.
And when you actually said it's retarded to care about the social contract, I lost every last shred of respect for your point of view on the format. I'm glad I probably will never meet you in a game of EDH.
January 28, 2021 2:48 a.m.
plakjekaas wow are you really that ignorant ?
or are you just to stupid to understand what i have been saying?
RambIesays...#36"the answer to all the questions depends on the deck"
how many cards in my Feathered interact with Sol Ring?
you do understand this deck was part of a challenge build?
are you able to build/play a deck that uses Gideon's Sacrifice as a win con ?
all my black decks have Vampiric Tutor ?
ok so i have 4 decks listed that have black, 3 of them have Vampiric Tutor, only 1 of them is an actual deckWindgrace *Rip*
im sorry you are gullible enough to believe Xantcha Crusher & Bone Miser's Jank Zombie Army are real decks
but just like my 2nd Place Commander there actually just used for me to test my math on probabilities
"Really the epitome of creative deck building there."
yup it must be, because you cant figure out what your looking at
"Banning every deck that overperforms out of existence is a Standard problem, every single card that got banned in magic apart from Flash and Lutri, the Spellchaser in the last year and a half, is still legal in Commander. Stop spreading lies."
spreading lies ? i am predicting the future based on the patterns of the past
as you said your self its a standard problem, its also a problem in every solved format, considering over the years the only action they have ever taken to balance a solved format is to ban cards. as commander becomes solved are you foolish enough to believe there not going to ban ?
or are you one of those can't see the forest for the trees kinda guys?
"And when you actually said it's retarded to care about the social contract, I lost every last shred of respect for your point of view on the format. I'm glad I probably will never meet you in a game of EDH."
ya dude, requiring a social contract to justify attacking, countering, or breaking is completely retarded. your presence in the game is all the justification i need. if you require the need for this form of less advanced game play i understand.
as for loosing your respect ?
considering your respect finds it expectable to help bring a month old dead form post back to life just to troll me about staples i cant help but not give a shit.
January 28, 2021 7:31 a.m.
Hey look I got a notification that one of the treads got a response.
(Reads last couple comments)
Oh gods! Run away!
Omniscience_is_life says... #2
It's always funny to me when a competitive deck just has no clue what to do against a single 7/7... that said, I would love to know more about the decks you're playing in these situations, to combat the cEDH ones--might you have a decklist(s)?
December 22, 2020 12:44 p.m.