How does Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord's second +1 work?
Asked by DrkNinja 2 years ago
So I have Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord in a vampire deck, since there's no activation colon can I trigger this ability multiple times by sacing to like Ashnod's Altar? Or is the ability whats enabling the sac?
Named_Tawyny says... #2
Note that there IS an activation colon - it's right after the +1.
The sacrificing a creature is part of the resolution of the ability, not part of the cost.
November 25, 2021 9:08 p.m.
Another reason for Planeswalker Loyalty abilities using the phrase "may sacrifice" followed by a reflexive triggered ability is that, if you activate Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord planning to sacrifice a token, because the sacrifice is after the implicit colon of paying loyalty, your opponent may remove the token you plan to sacrifice in response. Since it's a may ability, you won't be forced to sacrifice the better creature you want to keep around, you just won't get the benefit. Reflexive triggered abilities are still contingent on you taking the action specifically in conjunction with the ability it is nested in, in this case sacrificing a creature. As another example, The Royal Scions ultimate has you draw 4 cards. If you draw 3 cards and dredge the 4th, you don't get to deal the damage. If you later in the turn draw 4 cards as the result of Tidings you still won't get to then deal the damage because it wasn't part of the initial resolution.
November 26, 2021 12:05 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
@Neotrup: In your example with The Royal Scions, dredging the 4th card will still trigger the reflexive triggered ability. A "when you do..." check will succeed as long as the player started to take the action, even if the expected result of taking that action got replaced with a different result.
118.11. The actions performed when paying a cost may be modified by effects. Even if they are, meaning the actions that are performed don’t match the actions that are called for, the cost has still been paid.
118.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t], [effect].” Or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
November 29, 2021 2:23 p.m.
@Rhadamanthus those rules don't refer to reflexive triggers, which are just governed by the following:
603.12. A resolving spell or ability may allow or instruct a player to take an action and create a triggered ability that triggers "when [a player] [does or doesn't]" take that action or "when [something happens] this way." These reflexive triggered abilities follow the rules for delayed triggered abilities (see rule 603.7), except that they're checked immediately after being created and trigger based on whether the trigger event or events occurred earlier during the resolution of the spell or ability that created them.
If the event is replaced, it didn't happen so the reflexive triggered doesn't occur, unlike with an "if you do" clause addressed by the rules you referenced. This difference can be seen in the Gatherer rulings for The Royal Scions:
10/4/2019 If you draw fewer than four cards while resolving the last ability of The Royal Scions, its reflexive triggered ability doesn't trigger.
November 29, 2021 11:27 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Neotrup you're right. I didn't consider the separate rules for reflexive triggers (or even the rules for regular triggered abilities, I suppose) and didn't think it through far enough.
Polaris says... Accepted answer #1
You pay the counter cost (in this case +1) and then do what the ability says. Like other planeswalker loyalty abilities, you can only use one per turn when you could cast a sorcery. In this case, the ability is split into two parts. The first part gives you the option to sacrifice a Vampire (only one, and only one time per activation). If you do, the reflexive trigger goes off and Sorin will drain 3 damage to any target.
The "may" clause is there because sometimes you want to +1 Sorin but you don't want to sacrifice a creature. Since his first +1 targets a creature you control, you can't actually use that one at all if you control no creatures. The second ability has the option of being used as just a +1 that does nothing else, so at least you're not losing the chance to tick Sorin up.
November 25, 2021 7:50 p.m.