Eminence: Do you like it and why not?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 31, 2023, 4:55 p.m. by nhhale
(Title is a joke, I actually like Eminence)
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I haven't been playing long enough to remember when we first got Eminence commanders, so I'm curious if there are any hot takes out there. Based on my own observation, people with strong opinions usually say one of two things:
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Eminence is bad* (insert adjective of varying intensity) for EDH. You shouldn't get a free enchantment effect that can't be interacted with.
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Eminence is powerful, but it's also interesting and fun. I'm glad that it's in the game.
I'm excited to hear any interesting insights and hope this won't turn into a debate.
DrukenReaps that's actually the second time I've heard someone mention Edgar Markov and Inalla, Archmage Ritualist specifically. I have to agree that they are the most powerful of the 5 existing Eminence commanders. I also agree that the new one is powerful, potentially the best one yet.
I have my own Inalla deck. I actually leaned into her second ability that taps your wizards, and I have such a blast playing it that I kind of wish they hadn't given her Eminence. It's a super interesting ability that I haven't seen on any other commander, but it unfortunately gets completely overshadowed by her first ability (to be fair, I did lean quite a bit into that one as well).
March 31, 2023 6:41 p.m.
I'm indifferent on it compared to some.
I guess if I have a MAJOR qualm with something it is both the outlet & payoff being stapled on to this new commander with card selection & graveyard building right out of the command zone. Seems pushed enough to generally raise the competition level at tables to high-mid automatically regardless of the intent of the build, regardless of the deck-pilot, particularly considering how much you will see this pushed commander due to him being an ever-popular face commander. Could make for some bad experiences for new players piloting him in that they may not understand why they are getting gang-piled on by more experienced players... This guy is the kind if no-work value-engine where you don't necessarily have to know what you are doing to roll people. They tried to "dial it back" a bit by adding a tribal element... but I don't think that will do much, especially over time as we see more knights in the game.
If this card design is going to be in Mardu & now Esper, then I think all the 3 color pairings should get the same treatment with a topnotch high-compete eminence commander of their own.
March 31, 2023 11:17 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #5
Inalla is broken, Edgar is the scourge of casual, and the rest are forgettable.
Sidar won't be broken, and is probably the sweet spot for the keyword. Knight tribal is weak, so the best things to trigger it will be Changeling Outcast and Mothdust Changeling or similar. It just seems like a worse Raffine.
April 1, 2023 6:59 a.m.
I don't really have any issue with the eminence commanders, but it's just a thing where mtg is a game of costs, so anything that's free or functionally free always straddle being either too powerful or way underpowered to make up for the fact that they are free.
Honestly, the new eminence commander actually looks better to me than the old ones. A big problem with say Edgar is that there is almost no incentive to ever cast him, or to only cast him when you are already in a winning position. Most of the time they are like 3 color, 0 mana planeswalker emblem that can be your commander.
April 1, 2023 8:06 a.m.
Haha, yeah, I didn't even mention Grixis. So: Grixis, Esper, & Mardu all have them. They should give the eminence high-compete to the other 3-color combos eventually.
April 1, 2023 8:59 a.m.
Grubbernaut are you using lame things like Changeling Outcast as an example because of the agro mana value? Admittedly, agro knights will be the best, but there are plenty of better knights like Adeline, Resplendent Cathar, the cavaliers, off the top of my head without looking them up.
Free rummage from the command zone is no joke & there are plenty of decent knights, mostly at mana value 3 but value 2 has a few as well. There are plenty of higher-end reanimate target knights as well. Indestructible on this commander will be interesting too, or just plain beautiful for Tragic Arrogance & a buttload of boardwipes.
Eminence is fine. I do think due to popularity, ease of this eminence ability, undervaluing of free rummage, recent tuning of precons, & popularity/access (face commander) - this dude has similar potential to Edgar to be a 'Scourge of Casual'
Thank goodness this eminence ability is not worded similar to Breena, the Demagogue for multiple triggers! :)
April 1, 2023 9:32 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #9
I've come to terms with that yes, it is a critically overpowered mechanic as it can't be interacted with, as long as your Commander is in the zone. It's essentially free value you get from the start of the game for doing literally nothing.
That being said, in a 4-person game it will balance out when the other three team up to take down the largest threat at the table. But, this does make it unfair to that singular player. However, if you are going to bring a hand grenade to a knife fight, you kinda deserve what you're about to get, lol.
April 1, 2023 12:02 p.m.
TypicalTimmy I appreciate your comment and I don't mean to argue, but it seems to me that what you are saying is more relevant to the overall power level of your deck rather than Eminence specifically.
If I'm at a casual table with player 1's Edgar Markov deck and player 2's Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow, I'm not necessarily more worried about player 1 because they get to make 1/1 vampires for free. For all I know, player 3 is going to stomp all of us with their Fblthp, the Lost deck.
April 1, 2023 3:26 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #11
With an ability such as Eminence, one must critically examine it both at face value and as a unit of a whole.
The deck can be built terribly, but the mechanic still gives you free benefits for simply existing. The fact it automatically triggers outside of the game in your Command Zone means before the game even begins, you already have an advantage over others.
This is a problem.
But my personal theory is that the table will self correct, making it not a big deal.
April 1, 2023 3:39 p.m.
TypicalTimmy. Except when you start applying that idea in-bulk, then you start talking about power creep in the format. Also, the classic issue of: best of ___. Best of vampires Edgar Markov. Best of wizards Inalla, Archmage Ritualist Best of knights? ___
Fortunately, they have done this on a tribal scale so far, maybe that is what the game designers intended to make sure eminence didn't trump all the other commander choices? Easy for me to talk, I don't really care for tribal play, I might be annoyed if I had a beloved tribal-type deck that just became obsolete.
April 1, 2023 5:16 p.m.
TypicalTimmy I only meant that I think any commander can be built to an appropriate power level for your playgroup but I see now this extraneous to the point you are making.
It does seem a shame to me that these cards carry the infamy you describe to the table, because I really enjoy them (as well as tribal decks in general). Hopefully we continue to see more tribal commanders in the future that are less controversial.
April 1, 2023 6:07 p.m.
I don't always feel like doing research when I write on here, that makes me feel like I am writing up EBP articles in school again, but I want to say the bulk of the eminence commanders were 2017?
My "hot" take; I like eminence better than I like partner (probably not a majority opinion).
Personal reason/joke here -> The Esper eminence guy will just make me sour because against most builds I won't be able to just pwn him with boardwipes like I do against Edgar Markov. A half decent build should be very wipe-resilient, even to the sac-wipes I think :)
April 1, 2023 7:07 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #15
Others have already touched on the “lack of interaction” aspect of eminence, so I won’t dive too deep into it, but I wanted to pitch in as another who agrees with that. Planechase is fun when everyone agrees to play it. If you just give yourself a plane, to be used by only you, it’s probably going to be poorly received.
April 1, 2023 7:20 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #16
But again,
Personally I like Eminence. I would ask to not play against it in a 1v1 game with my casual decks, as I know I'll most likely end up losing. But I wouldn't mind the challenge, either.
In a pod, bring it on let's see what you got. It's like confronting a bear...
I don't have to beat the bear. I just have to outlast you ;)
April 1, 2023 7:22 p.m. Edited.
plakjekaas says... #17
The aid from the command zone is supposed to get more expensive the more you use it. Y'know, commander tax. Eminence, Oloro, Yuriko, Derevi, it's free value. Unfair advantage by leveraging something that the table can't shut off, not even by killing your commander a bunch of times, which is supposed to be the fix for powerful commanders. Not even just that, the advantage also keeps flowing when they are on the battlefield.
Free stuff is bad in a game of resource management. It upsets all balance. There should be less of it, not more. Put in the work, don't dodge the responsibility of actually playing the game. Stop (commander) tax evasion.
April 2, 2023 7:44 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #18
Honestly I can’t stand eminence. Free value just for choosing your commander feels wrong. I feel that all of them even at the casual level just reward you for narrow deck design. I wish you had to cast your commander before their ability could work. For instance, Edgar will play little 1 drop vampires that on their own don’t warrant removal. However, when every body brings a friend to the table it becomes a bit more difficult. Then when you actually play Edgar you get to alpha strike a player.
I think that if at least had to cast the commander first to turn on the eminence ability then it would be more fair. Ex when ur dragon enters the battlefield you get an eminence emblem. If you have this emblem dragon spells cost 1 less to cast.
Hell I think if you did eminence like experience counters it would be better. Make your commander’s eminence better each time you cast it. In my experience with eminence they never cast their commander because why would they?
April 2, 2023 9:15 a.m.
plakjekaas Yuck, I forgot about Derevi. If you are including tax-evading commanders in the eminence conversation, then what do you think of Liesa, Shroud of Dusk? I've played against a few Liesa decks & I really like her, but she does evade taxes, do you think it is tax evasion done right? or is there NO "tax evasion done right"?
It does irritate me that tax evasion does become this sortof card-advantage deal, where if you are playing a good grindy resource strapped game a player will just choose to cast that commander over & over to just hold up more resources in hand than they should have had.
April 2, 2023 10:39 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #20
Gleeock Liesa doesn't evade taxes, she's just in a different bracket, paying a different rate. I know life is a more abundant resource than mana is, especially in commander, but casting Liesa for 5 mana and an Inescapable Blaze to the face is not trivial, especially when you make everyone else at the table pay life for playing the game as well. That's the sort of thing that people keep in mind when threat assessing, especially when you advertise it from the command zone, and your opponents get reminded with every spell they cast.
I'd say that's done way better than a commander you never need to cast in the first place.
April 2, 2023 1:38 p.m.
Yeah, I forgot that she still pays taxes... just a different kind
April 2, 2023 3:15 p.m.
None of the eminence commanders are cEDH-level except inalla, and she's not broken by any means in cEDH. So I'd say Eminence isn't "overpowered"... It's a decent game mechanic. Doesn't feel totally "Boring" but it also gets old. Edgar markov and Ur-dragon are boring decks to play and play against
April 3, 2023 8:36 p.m.
Crockosneef says... #23
I used to have an Ur-Dragon deck; it was actually my first EDH deck ever. While I did upgrade it a lot, I still just felt bad about having a cost reduction outside of the gate, as its power level was quite above the other decks at the table. I eventually changed it into another type of deck because of how it felt to play it.
I can't really speak for any of the other commanders, personally, as I didn't see many around. While I do think that exclusively having a free boon from the very start is kind of unfair, I can see it looking more fair when the power level isn't absurd. Oloro is a good example, as consistent life gain like that isn't evidently absurd and rarely creates moments which feel bad. While I think the new spoiler commander looks very powerful, I'm not entirely sure that I would be as bothered by the looting effect. Very impactful, but you at least have to work toward that through combat.
April 4, 2023 3:53 a.m.
AeroFallenAngel says... #24
Getting something for nothing with 0 way to interact with it will always be broken, no matter if the effect is considered "underwhelming" or not. All dragons costing 1 less and having access to all 5 colors isn't weak. Giving a cat +3/+3 with 0 way to interact with the card doing that is broken. Creating a 1/1 every time you cast a vampire is broken. A lot of these decks are also run with changeling tribal. It's basically a turn 0 free enchantment with protection from everything and can't be hit with board wipes that gives you free advantage just for existing.
June 7, 2023 8:42 a.m.
I like Eminence, my second commander and favorite commander to this day is Markov, I don't believe eminence is broken as a lot of people seems to think, for me it's far less problematic than infinite combo and such, most eminence are not top cedh anyway.
Also, in my opinion Arahbo, Roar of the World is a great commander and his eminence is better than Edgar Markov , the cat tribe is nothing to take lightly
July 12, 2023 1 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #26
Because the only way a card is problematic is if it's viable in cEDH? That's some ignorant prejudice '^^
Arahbo's eminence is not better than Edgar's. Cats may be powerful, but the ability of Arahbo can be negated by fogs, removal spells, Moat, and does nothing without a target, for which you need to invest in a board presence first. Edgar gives free board presence upon casting spells, which can only be negated by Stifles. You'll cast more vampires in an Edgar deck than you'll have combat phases in an Arahbo deck. To compare the advantage of both eminence abilities and conclude that Arahbo is the more powerful out of the two is frankly delusional.
Eminence changes the rules of the game for the user, without any cost tied to it. It's the same reason Companion is the most problematic mechanic of all time. The reason it's not a real problem like companion was in 1v1 formats, is because competitive formats don't have a command zone. If Inalla's eminence ability was obtainable in legacy, the card would be banned yesteryear.
The only reason it works in commander, is because it's a casual multiplayer format, which can correct overpowered cards with table politics. A lot of other broken cards and mechanics are fine in commander because of that. The infamous Command Zone analysis on t1 Sol Ring success rates proves that powerful effects can be mitigated by the inherent self-balancing of multiplayer formats.
I'm not advocating Eminence cards should be banned, but I will judge you for choosing an eminence commander over the plethora of other options every color has to offer now. If you choose Arahbo over, say, Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist as your cat commander, I will act accordingly because you're trying to exploit free resources I can't interact with. Your deck defines itself with this unfair advantage in the command zone, radiating its privilege from its safehouse. Just own up to that and we'll be fine, but don't deflect and argue eminence isn't that powerful, because it is. People are allowed to feel bad going up against it, just like people are allowed to feel bad when they get Armageddond.
Play unfair commanders, get treated unfairly, is all I'm saying.
July 12, 2023 3:03 p.m.
“Play unfair commanders, get treated unfairly, is all I'm saying.”
This is honestly the only L take I’ve seen in this thread. People all have different opinions about what is and isn’t powerful in the format. I hope I’m wrong, but the overall tone of your comment conveys, “Expect me to make your game unpleasant if you play something I don’t care for.”
Choosing to play an Eminence commander (or any commander for that matter) over another doesn’t give your opponent the right to assume you intend to play unfairly or judge. If you see gameplay you don’t enjoy, you should leave the table rather than make someone else’s experience less enjoyable.
I think it’s clear from everyone’s comments that, while Eminence a is powerful and controversial mechanic, it is not the pinnacle of EDH gameplay. Players can build decks to contend at the level they choose.
Players can and should have opinions about what they consider fair/unfair, but no two people are going to agree on every card that hits the table. I honestly don’t understand how anyone who thinks otherwise could even enjoy this game at all.
July 12, 2023 3:44 p.m.
"the only way a card is problematic is if it's viable in cEDH? That's some ignorant prejudice"
there's nothing ignorant about my opinion, I was trying to make a point about the fact that while eminence is powerful, it's absolutely not the most powerful.
This is based on my personal experience.
As for arahbo,
"To compare the advantage of both eminence abilities and conclude that Arahbo is the more powerful out of the two is frankly delusional."
Not what I said. Please be respectful.
July 12, 2023 5:06 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #29
"Also, in my opinion Arahbo, Roar of the World is a great commander and his eminence is better than Edgar Markov , the cat tribe is nothing to take lightly"
July 12, 2023 11:32 p.m.
When I say it has a better capacity, it doesn't mean it's more powerful as a whole, which is probably why there are 99 other cards. I was just comparing the two based on that.
Sorry if this was unclear and seemed "delusional" to you.
July 13, 2023 9:28 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #31
I'm personally not a fan of Eminence, because it feels like an Emblem type effect that can't really be interacted with, as others have stated. Edgar is probably my least favorite of the bunch from having played against it frequently in my local meta.
I think Eminence could have been more interesting if there was some draw back to it triggering while its commander is still in the command zone. Maybe Arahbo's command zone buff is +1/+1 instead of +3/+3, or if Edgar is in the command zone, you lose 1 life when you make the vamp token or the vamp token enters tapped. The in the command zone draw backs aren't back-breaking, but could give players some additional layer of decision making for keeping their commander in the Zone or casting them.
DrukenReaps says... #2
I've played against all the eminence commanders and played with a few. I think both Inalla, Archmage Ritualist and Edgar Markov were a ...bit much.
The others being Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Arahbo, Roar of the World, and The Ur-Dragon always seemed strong but fine to me. Their real value not coming until they are in play.
The new one drawing and discarding seems like it has the potential to lean more towards the first group imo. Drawing on a commander always seems woefully undervalued by so many... Though it isn't just straight card advantage so maybe it'll be another strong but fine commander. People will actually want to play it in order to get real value out of it.
Overall I think any card with eminence is going to be playing with fire but not any more so than say storm or infect. It'd be easy to go overboard with the effect but there are many other effects that provide only mild value. Regardless folks will likely get targeted even if they played the absolute weakest eminence ability. I think the heat it can attract will balance it out at any table.
March 31, 2023 5:50 p.m.